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Post by mothman55 on Feb 28, 2022 9:22:20 GMT -8
Bill and Bob, thanks again for further input. I can say that the orange colour is not the result of aging or fading as I noticed this odd colour pattern immediately upon capture back in 1985 and took photos back then as well. It has been my one oddball catocala specimen and has been stored in a Cornell drawer in darkness all these many years. But I think we all agree its probably coccinata, albeit with some colour aberration. As I said, I have seen a bit of orange in the inner margin on the hind wings of amatrix mixing with the pink, so its not that unusual, except for the extreme amount of the orange. Once again, thanks for your input, your opinions support putting it in the coccinata drawer.
As to your odd looking coccinata, I would have guessed a melanic semirelicta, although I have never seen a melanic one before, but the hindwing and the reduced black bar seem very different from coccinata. As you said, more junctura or semirelicta like. Also, take a close look at the inner margin of the hind wings, this specimen also has a bit of orange mixing in with the pink. I didn't see it at first, but thought what a coincidence as we are discussing mixed colour patterns.
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Post by vabrou on Feb 28, 2022 14:06:14 GMT -8
mothman55 Not an aberrant but here is what typical Catocala coccinata ♂ from Louisiana looks like. I think Bill's assessment is correct.
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Post by billgarthe on Feb 28, 2022 15:55:26 GMT -8
Mothman55, Yes, I think the HWs indeed look more semirelicta-like, but the FW markings on my oddball are so similar to the markings of coccinata, that I am truly perplexed. It’s also missing the outer teeth and dark bar that’s typical of semirelicta.
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Post by mothman27 on Feb 28, 2022 18:42:32 GMT -8
Greetings, Mothman27 - I saw a specimen similar to this in the collection at work and wondered something. Is this a gynandromorph with yellow from a male appearing with the dark form of a female, or is it an incomplete normal/dark form mix of a female alone? I assume the genitalia would be the clincher - as I understand how a gynandromorph is expressed, in a dark/light mix of a female, the genitalia would be normal, but in a gynandromorph, the genitalia would be mutated. I can't tell much from the image, although the terminal segment of the abdomen does look asymmetrical, unless that is a yellow splotch. Just curious! Bandrow I just took a closer look and I honestly can't tell just visually. I had considered the possibility of a form blend (glaucus/turnus) although I am not sure if that exists. The right tip of the abdomen is indeed a yellow/white spot. there are a few speckles of this color on the abdomen. Even in a gynandromorph, I am not sure the genitalia would necessarily be obviously mutated in a mosaic specimen. The abdomen certainly looks female as a whole and obviously the specimen is at least 85% female, if not 100%. Is anyone aware of such a mosaic mix between two forms of a species in such an irregular pattern?
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Post by joachim on Feb 28, 2022 19:29:31 GMT -8
And, I have a gyno of troides Rhadmanthus ( 2 ) and also of Appias nero.I have heard that the eggs are infected by bacteria and then it comes to increased problems so that gynanders arise. Is this a good theory? ( i cannot remember where I have read this and from whom it is who)
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Post by nomihoudai on Mar 1, 2022 0:36:09 GMT -8
And, I have a gyno of troides Rhadmanthus ( 2 ) and also of Appias nero.I have heard that the eggs are infected by bacteria and then it comes to increased problems so that gynanders arise. Is this a good theory? ( i cannot remember where I have read this and from whom it is who) You heard about Wolbachia. Wolbachia are intracellular bacteria that infect many insects. They can have an effect on the sexual reproduction of their host species, some species even rely on an infection with Wolbachia to properly procreate and produce both sexes. There was multiple cases in which lineages in captivity got infected by Wolbachia and after that they were more likely to produce gynanders. This is one of the reasons why I am not too fond of the recent large numbers in Morpho and Agrias gynanders. They probably got some Wolbachia strain in their breeding facility. p.S. In English the short form of gynandromorph is gynander[gyno+andro ~woman+man], not gyno(~woman).
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Post by bobw on Mar 1, 2022 1:21:58 GMT -8
The forewing pattern suggests to me that it's a melanic coccinata with an aberrant hindwing.
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Post by billgarthe on Mar 1, 2022 6:20:13 GMT -8
Thnx Bob. That’s my take on it as well. Nice to know another sees it as I do.
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Post by mothman55 on Mar 1, 2022 8:35:08 GMT -8
Could it not be a hybrid? That hind wing isn't even close to coccinata? Has anyone seen a melanic coccinata before. This one is really unique.
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Post by LEPMAN on Mar 1, 2022 10:24:20 GMT -8
One day, with the help of DNA barcoding we may know the answer!
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Post by wolf on Mar 2, 2022 12:16:35 GMT -8
Abberant Cirrochroa tyche mithila to the right, normal specimens on the left. Caught in Vietnam 2010.
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Post by rayrard on Mar 2, 2022 18:01:42 GMT -8
I wonder if anyone has a orange/red Catocala with black HW or a black HW species with colored bands? Maybe the change involves multiple successive mutations within that clade, because I haven't seen any.
I always thought C. consors was basically an orange epione and C. lacrymosa was a black palaeogama. Their forewing patterns are so close.
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Post by trehopr1 on Mar 3, 2022 1:16:19 GMT -8
In the picture below I show a bit of a mixed-up female Tulip-tree moth which I wild collected a few years back. The above specimen is wild collected also but, is the typical coloration I often encounter where I catch these. I cannot say exactly what is going on with the lower specimen however, it certainly looked out of the ordinary !
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Post by LEPMAN on Mar 4, 2022 15:54:56 GMT -8
In the picture below I show a bit of a mixed-up female Tulip-tree moth which I wild collected a few years back. The above specimen is wild collected also but, is the typical coloration I often encounter where I catch these. I cannot say exactly what is going on with the lower specimen however, it certainly looked out of the ordinary ! I would say your specimen is a lightening of color either structural and or molecular. I’m currently working on a research project on this subject. Sometimes certain mechanisms in wing development can be impacted leading to such changes.
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Post by jhyatt on Mar 4, 2022 16:28:58 GMT -8
I wonder if anyone has a orange/red Catocala with black HW or a black HW species with colored bands? Maybe the change involves multiple successive mutations within that clade, because I haven't seen any. I always thought C. consors was basically an orange epione and C. lacrymosa was a black palaeogama. Their forewing patterns are so close. And I've often thought that maestosa was rather like a black marmorata... jh
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