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Post by yorky on May 15, 2022 9:57:30 GMT -8
The problems start when people go looking for things to be offended about, the modern world is littered with examples.
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Post by kevinkk on May 15, 2022 11:27:17 GMT -8
A lot of names and words used in the past were simply the way people talked, and use as derogatory terms came later. My ancestors had very different points of view and priorities. We do speak Latin here, especially in a worldwide forum, common names mean virtually nothing as they vary from place to place. Maybe changing particular names may have some feel good quality, and perhaps even the correcting of an injustice, old habits die hard, I've caught myself in the past using my father's slang, and when being reflected upon, can be an epiphany. Perhaps when all us "pre- correct" persons have passed on and no one is left to recall divisive terms, that would be making these changes worthwhile, if it sticks- remember the metric system?
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Post by eurytides on May 15, 2022 13:12:18 GMT -8
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Post by lamprima2 on May 15, 2022 23:09:09 GMT -8
Let's abandon binominal Latin names of live organisms: Roman society was based on slavery. We can use English common names representing a language of freedom, equality, justice, peace, and stuff like that.
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Post by africaone on May 16, 2022 0:15:50 GMT -8
Let's abandon binominal Latin names of live organisms: Roman society was based on slavery. We can use English common names representing a language of freedom, equality, justice, peace, and stuff like that. Indians, aboriginals, afro-americans, etc, etc .. are surely on the same POV the only replacement solution is to code them (what will be necessar if we want to identify all the species (some millions)
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Post by wollastoni on May 16, 2022 0:30:07 GMT -8
Thierry < lamprima2 was ironical. Coding is an interesting thing in taxonomy, but I doubt it would help more than binomial taxonomy, as thing will become very obscure to most of us. I guess it won't replace binomial taxonomy but will be added on top of it.
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 16, 2022 4:57:53 GMT -8
It already is being done online by museum taxonomists, I think they are called "LSIDs". They are for computer identification of taxa, rather than for people to use.
Adam.
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Post by jshuey on May 16, 2022 7:03:45 GMT -8
This is the same group that get's all bent out of shape if anyone dares to say something about insect collectors - right? Yet, we object to efforts to eliminate potentially denigrating names that hurt minority ethnic groups?
John
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Post by kevinkk on May 16, 2022 7:27:39 GMT -8
This is the same group that get's all bent out of shape if anyone dares to say something about insect collectors - right? Yet, we object to efforts to eliminate potentially denigrating names that hurt minority ethnic groups? John I doubt anyone has been hurt by nomenclature, it's generally indicative of other issues. I don't see how the name of the fish ever came about in the first place- maybe it was named for a location. Which would be nearly just as inexplicable. Maybe it's off topic, but stereotypes exist for a reason, not always a flattering one, but they don't or didn't come out of thin air.
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Post by jshuey on May 16, 2022 7:41:46 GMT -8
This is the same group that get's all bent out of shape if anyone dares to say something about insect collectors - right? Yet, we object to efforts to eliminate potentially denigrating names that hurt minority ethnic groups? John I doubt anyone has been hurt by nomenclature, it's generally indicative of other issues. I don't see how the name of the fish ever came about in the first place- maybe it was named for a location. Which would be nearly just as inexplicable. Maybe it's off topic, but stereotypes exist for a reason, not always a flattering one, but they don't or didn't come out of thin air. I'm sure that Blacks love that there are butterflies called by the N-word. Or that a major pest species hated throughout the northern hemisphere carries the your ethnic group's names along with it. It's all positive and in good fun - right? We didn't mean anything by it, it's just that your fun-loving group and defoliation seemed like a playful combination. Stereotypes do exist for a reason. Generally ignorant people make broad generalizations about other people who are different from them, rather than trying to discover the nuances behind the differences... . John
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Post by yorky on May 16, 2022 10:02:47 GMT -8
I agree John, sweeping generalisations never achieve anything positive. It usually leads to resentment and worse. I still stick by my first post though. There are sections of our society, usually done on some social media platform, who actively go looking for bandwagons and causes to jump on with no other intention but to virtue signal, they equally cause as much resentment as the first group.
As far as English names go it can be quite innocent. Back in the day the Small Tortoiseshell butterfly Aglais urticae was referred to as "the Frenchie". The name came about because local people who didn't travel much were only used to seeing the white butterflies that infested their vegetable plots so something so exotic looking and colourful must come from France, I wonder what would have happened if they ever saw a peacock Aglais io, it probably would have been called "the Brazilian "
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Post by tv on May 16, 2022 21:59:09 GMT -8
The point I was trying to make and my objection to the tone of the discussion is that people are bringing/making up the most absurdist examples of this behavior and then using it as an excuse to dismiss all things related to it that are actually valid. It's really easy to take a clip from Tiktok and claim this is where our society is going, but it's just some kid trying to get views for self esteem. We all did dumb stuff when we were younger, but now it's on video for the world to see. That has nothing to do with the fact that there are very clear cases where hateful and derogatory terms like the n-word, have outstayed their welcome and should be retired. That word has been used for generations to dehumanize Black people, and yet on the same day that a White supremacist shoots and kills a bunch of Black people, we're posting the n-word on our insect forum (I guess it had to be done for science?).
Names absolutely have the power to help or hurt. Is he a troubled kid or a thug? Troubled kids get therapy, thugs go to prison.
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Post by Crake on May 16, 2022 22:39:56 GMT -8
The point I was trying to make and my objection to the tone of the discussion is that people are bringing/making up the most absurdist examples of this behavior and then using it as an excuse to dismiss all things related to it that are actually valid. It's really easy to take a clip from Tiktok and claim this is where our society is going, but it's just some kid trying to get views for self esteem. We all did dumb stuff when we were younger, but now it's on video for the world to see. That has nothing to do with the fact that there are very clear cases where hateful and derogatory terms like the n-word, have outstayed their welcome and should be retired. That word has been used for generations to dehumanize Black people, and yet on the same day that a White supremacist shoots and kills a bunch of Black people, we're posting the n-word on our insect forum (I guess it had to be done for science?). Names absolutely have the power to help or hurt. Is he a troubled kid or a thug? Troubled kids get therapy, thugs go to prison. As a member of the “TikTok-using” generation, I agree with tv. The issue is honestly so superficial, and social media doesn’t help by inflating the issue to instigate a public outcry. Like many said, that kind of revisionism is only susceptible to valid criticism when greatly distorted out of proportion. It’s the *colloquial* name of a butterfly. At this point I’m just disappointed that society wastes much of it’s energy bickering about something so silly.
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Post by wollastoni on May 17, 2022 2:19:25 GMT -8
yet on the same day that a White supremacist shoots and kills a bunch of Black people, we're posting the n-word on our insect forum (I guess it had to be done for science?). I fully agree with your post, but is this sentence a criticism against me ? I was just explaining that some butterflies have very "strange" common names that could be hurtful in 2022. As you can see on wikipedia or in any insect books: fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_n%C3%A8gre_des_boisThe name came from the 19th century when the "n word" as you say was a synonym of "noir" in everyday's life.A little bit like in Spanish, if you want to translate "a black butterfly", you will get "una mariposa negra". There was nothing "racist" in the 19th century. But now, the term "Nègre" is a racist slur (as in English) and I would fully understand we change this butterfly name into something else. It is not by hiding potential issue that you fix them.
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Post by tv on May 17, 2022 8:03:55 GMT -8
Where I grew up, and now where I live, there are certain individuals that relish in the chance to bring up these kind of words in "acceptable" circumstances. So when someone has a can of mixed nuts, they pull out a Brazil nut and say "Oh look, n-word-toes! - At least that's what my Daddy used to call them". There is nothing cute or folksy about this, it's just a way for them to determine if they're in the type of company that thinks this is acceptable language, with the "I was just repeating what my Daddy said" thrown in to give them a chance to claim innocence if someone takes offense. Whether intentional or not, a lot of the initial discussion on this topic had that kind of feeling. I know that's part of the limitation when we're all typing instead of talking, but that means we need to be aware of how things can be construed.
To your point, the word black has a lot of different translations in different languages that all have different degrees of similarity to the n-word. While I can't attest to how the use of these translations has varied over the years I can tell you that in the United States the n-word has been a racially derogatory term since the 17th or 18th century (first court recognized Black slave in US was 1654). So while it might not be of concern to some, the fact that we have the n-word, in quotation marks or not, on this message board is a clear signal to certain people that they aren't welcome here.
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