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Post by jackblack on Aug 11, 2011 3:06:28 GMT -8
Chis is unfamiliar with species and laws of other countries , so not familiar with some dealers adds on insect net.  I can`t mention names , do some homework . Re Bill , well ignore it and it gets more and more difficult , I know from what you say you do your best like me , but it`s a money orientated world sadly . All remember these first threads now. My late friend Ross Storey died recently a well respected world Coleopterist said to me not long ago, Life will get more difficult with insect collections its just the start less than 12 months later his predictions are becoming more reality ever day . Somehow everyone needs to adress the issues in discussion , I don`t know how ? I wish I never started this discussion but its out there , how long can you put the blinkers on . A lot of people out there reading this , only a few willing to put an effort in , I admire the guys to willing at least to have some sort of discussion about it .Like I said else where , if it were elephants being offered , tiger bones or bear spleens you would most likely be upset . How about the rest of you come out of the shell and say how you feel really.  See no weevil hear no weevil , speak no weevil, doesn`t mean that weevils don`t exist .Excuse the pun but I like it. |
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Post by mikelock34 on Aug 11, 2011 9:28:11 GMT -8
If I am reading these posts correctly, you are aware of federal laws that are being broken but are not reporting this. That is a crime in itself and is helping to support the illegal trade.........................................................
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Post by Chris Grinter on Aug 11, 2011 11:13:04 GMT -8
No, it's not a crime - at least not in the US. None of us are aiding and abetting anyone who is violating the law and none of us are hiding the truth from law enforcement. Actually, we're talking about it in the open - far from a crime there. And what's especially important is that none of us are conspiring to commit a crime.
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Post by gynandromorpho on Aug 11, 2011 12:59:42 GMT -8
mikelock34 .... none is forced to testify against himself !!!
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Post by mikelock34 on Aug 11, 2011 14:00:24 GMT -8
You may want to look again to see if withholding evidence is a crime in the USA.....................
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Post by nomihoudai on Aug 12, 2011 1:18:06 GMT -8
Everybody stand still now or Mike will send you the cyberpolice home! (For those that don't get the joke, cyberpolice does not exist but is commonly refered to by elder people to make the younger fear who burst out in laughter instead) I must say that I find the recent posts on insectnet (especially yesterday) pretty sad, we had 3 topics at once about something being illegal related to our hobby. I also find it sad that the hobby is being destroyed for the general public, while it is possible to get a scientific permit for many parts of the world the commercial part is left out most of the time. This is in my eyes probably due to the fact that governments don't want an animal to die for the selfish purpose of "taking a better look at it" and so it won't get any better in the future. On the other hand I must say that the last 10 years probably have opened up the market extremely due to internet and we all can enjoy stuff that has costed a lot of pain in the past and our collections are growing and growing  Facing the initial question direcly, there is many country it is impossible to get stuff out the legal way, we all see the adds daily, but should we care? I don't think so, anybody of us understands how imbalanced the laws are (you can brun down the whole forest a species lives in for agriculture, but you can't take a single specimen of the species). |
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Post by Chris Grinter on Aug 12, 2011 1:35:55 GMT -8
You may want to look again to see if withholding evidence is a crime in the USA..................... No one is withholding evidence here. It becomes withholding only when the police directly ask you about a crime and you refuse to tell them. Then they have to prove that you knew something that would aid in their investigation and/or obtain a court order to compel you to talk. Failure to report a possible crime is not a crime! |
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Post by mikelock34 on Aug 12, 2011 4:31:38 GMT -8
Your attorney must be better than mine! It has been insinuated above that people know of wildlife crimes being committed and are not reporting them. Posters have stated that they will not name names. You stated that you knew of illegal specimens being offered in the classifieds on insectnet. If you have known for a fact that there are illegal specimens advertised and you do not report them , then are you not helping to further the illegal trade?
"I have however seen countless ads with illegal specimens for lack of permits. Anything coming from Mexico, India and Brazil is 100% illegal - those countries do not issue commercial permits!"
"I can`t mention names , do some homework ."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2011 6:29:05 GMT -8
I really wanted to sit this one out, but have a few comments.
1. "If you have known for a fact that there are illegal specimens advertised and you do not report them , then are you not helping to further the illegal trade?"
**********Actually, my take on this is that if one does NOT buy from or trade with such an individual, then that is the best way to not help further the illegal trade. It would be pretty sad if in our society every infraction was reported.....jaywalkers, speeders, etc. The freedom to discuss/freedom of speech would be forever impaired if such actions were done. Also, what if such reports were actually wrong and such cases cost the reported on person money, time, and maybe defamation of character? Is that fair?
2. I don't know.....so I can't, and woudn't, report anybody, but just because a country does not issue Commercial Permits...does that make anything coming out of that country illegal? Take French Guiana for example.......there is no Exportation paperwork or permits, yet it seems that so many people are taking insects w/o incident. I don't know, but some countries may allow for removal of insects, but prefer not to encourage large-scale commercial operations from moving in via commercial permits.
3. "No, it's not a crime - at least not in the US. None of us are aiding and abetting anyone who is violating the law and none of us are hiding the truth from law enforcement. Actually, we're talking about it in the open - far from a crime there. And what's especially important is that none of us are conspiring to commit a crime."
**********I agree completely. Talking about it openly can only help those of us who wish to comply and vent frustration. It could also inform those who are less informed so as to head off any unintended purchases from an illegal seller...thus not helping the illegal trade.
Again, I am no longer a Commercial Importer, but people I know have listed for 'Countries of Orgin' on Form 3-177 India, Brazil, Cuba, etc. and have had inspections go through just fine without incident. Why is that? Someone said that much of this is determined by a particular inspector with attitude....yes. But if one is trying to do the right thing and gets his/her stuff Cleared and some material may be from India.........then where does the fault lie? Again, as I said earlier, the USFW won't even provide a list of forbidden countries from which to import.
Enough said.
Respectfully,
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 12, 2011 8:15:24 GMT -8
Being well tied into a couple regulatory agencies in foreign countries, I am aware of what is being exported and by whom.
And I can tell you that several "reputable" major US dealers have imported insects without the appropriate export paperwork being done, and are thus in violation of the Lacy Act.
Having imported a number of packages totally legally, including comprehensive export paperwork, I can tell you it's frustrating because those other dealers can (obviously) undercut me.
But that's how it impacts me, and I am but such a minor cog.
Holistically, one has to ask if the Lacy Act and CITES make sense. In many cases they do not. Case in point: in the past I've written about how in Solomon Islands the rural people have two sources of cash: logging and wildlife. Since Ornithoptera are on the no-no list for import to USA, that source is gone. And with Solomon Islands government issuing few export permits, that source is largely gone...leaving logging. It is well known that logging is the single largest detriment to many animals, specifically Ornithoptera alexandrae and victoria.
So duh, the laws are in fact detrimental to the end goal.
Then there is Mexico, Brazil, etc. Are their black-and-white export bans helping anyone or any animal? I don't think so (with the exception of law enforcement employees.) How much have these bans set back scientific discoveries by amateurs, and how much have they cost the rural poor?
"An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law. "
Martin Luther King, Jr.
When Yoshi was under investigation he wasn't blown in by those who were concerned about the environment, he was done in by competitors for selfish reasons.
Now, I don't have the guts to follow through with Mr. King's suggestion, but nor am I to blindly criticize or turn in those who do.
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Post by Chris Grinter on Aug 12, 2011 17:47:40 GMT -8
2. I don't know.....so I can't, and woudn't, report anybody, but just because a country does not issue Commercial Permits...does that make anything coming out of that country illegal? Take French Guiana for example.......there is no Exportation paperwork or permits, yet it seems that so many people are taking insects w/o incident. I don't know, but some countries may allow for removal of insects, but prefer not to encourage large-scale commercial operations from moving in via commercial permits. Mexico/India/Brazil and to an extent Australia are examples of countries that explicitly make collecting and/or exporting illegal. In Mexico for example no one, not even a mexican land-owning citizen, is allowed to collect insects for any reason without permit. Brazil allows for collectors but the export is so tightly controlled even getting scientific permits is a lengthy process (but still possible at least). Specimens that are advertised as coming from these countries should be treated as highly suspect and are probably violating the lacey act. But you're right, there are lots of countries that have left it opened ended and don't seem to require any permits. I have heard French Guiana is a great example of what every country should be like! |
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Post by panzerman on Aug 12, 2011 19:12:04 GMT -8
Look on the bright side, Obama and his Goldman Sachs cabal are leading the USA into an abyss. Soon, the Feds will not have any money left to fund the USFW insect police!
John
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Post by wingedwishes on Aug 13, 2011 15:15:55 GMT -8
Report someone offering an insect on ebay without a permit? If they are in China, are wildlife officals going to go after them? They can only go after those in their jurisdiction. So, they would have to track tens of thousands of packages after getting warrants for each person to whom a delivery is going. Sounds like they have a headache every night when they go home from work.
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Post by jackblack on Aug 14, 2011 2:25:52 GMT -8
Seems I`m stiring up a little bees nest , but provoking some interesting conversation /conservation. We can`t be thought of as working illegally by not reporting things . Thats not our job , the fact it`s all available on the net and public it`s up to the depts to enforce their own laws .Its all out there for them .Talk about being handed something on a plate. As I mention some are really ridiculous laws as I agree with others Some laws by extremists are also being produced by self centered researchers  very sad indeed , they support protection of species because they get government funding then to keep them in a job ! But most real researchers I know don`t support that and have told me about the self centered few . Our government has supported my buisness and does recognise true conservation , I could have cleared my undisturbed rainforest for farming years ago but applied to farm it`s rescources instead and after much politics my buisiness was recognised as sustainable , I still have the right to log my forest but choose not to as I know I can make more out of sustainably using insects from the forest than destroying it ,so get to enjoy living here and seeing all the wonderful fauna on a daily basis .Besides animals its nice to have a pair of birdwings flying around in front of your nose during their courtship ritual . People that don`t like killing things should think twice , as a majority most are not vegetarian , so whats the difference between killing ranched beef or ranched insects. More food for thought . Suppose we all have our own ideals toward a perfect world , but lets be realistic. I`m still sadended at land clearing here  |
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Post by mikelock34 on Aug 14, 2011 4:33:45 GMT -8
"We can`t be thought of as working illegally by not reporting things."
By not reporting a crime that you are aware of, you are helping to support that crime. The general population of a country does have some level of responsibility for helping to stop crime by reporting them to help law enforcement stop those crimes.
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See no weevil hear no weevil , speak no weevil, doesn`t mean that weevils don`t exist .Excuse the pun but I like it.
very sad indeed , they support protection of species because they get government funding then to keep them in a job !