|
|
Post by takahe on Jan 26, 2012 0:55:51 GMT -8
These are examples of things I've seen for sale recently, that I've wondered whether or not they'd be safe to buy.
Alancastria louristana, Malawi Iran, collected in 1979
Penetes pamphanis, Sao Paulo, Brazil, collected in 2009
Dynastor napoleon, Brazil, collected in 1980
These were offered for sale in the past year or by dealers everyone here knows, and are generally known to be safe and legitimate, and have been in business many years. I'm not naming them but they are well-known wordwide and are on USA soil
When I first started college in 1989 (before I knew much about protected species) I bought a Baronia brevicornis from a guy who had an ad in the Popular Science classified section. The label on the specimen says it was collected in 1988. He was in the USA and I am as well, so I did not import it. Is that an illegal specimen?
Bradleigh
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post by prillbug2 on Jan 26, 2012 3:41:09 GMT -8
If you have the Baronia brevicornis specimen, then why say anything about it. I don't think it matters, if the data is scientfically correct. It's a valuable specimen. Plus, you bought it from someone who lives in the U.S.A.
Jeff Prill
|
|
|
|
Post by takahe on Jan 26, 2012 5:11:29 GMT -8
I doubt it would be very valuable. The antennae are missing, it's faded, and one wing had to be glued back on. It's really a very poor specimen. I know I'll never get another one, though.
If it's an illegal specimen, I'd destroy it. Like someone else said, a bug isn't worth prison or fines, especially one that isn't even very pretty.
|
|
|
|
Post by wollastoni on Jan 26, 2012 5:19:17 GMT -8
Don't US police have more serious problems than a broken, faded butterfly from 1988 in a bug collection from a honest citizen  |
|
|
|
Post by lepidofrance on Jan 26, 2012 15:47:53 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by mygala on Jan 26, 2012 19:40:22 GMT -8
Baronia brevicornis isn't listed under the ESA or CITES, so it should not be illegal to possess your specimen.
If you did not import it, then you didn't violate any USFWS import/export regs or Lacey.
It's listed by the IUCN, but those listings don't carry the weight of law.
Anything that happened in 1988 is probably past the statute of limitations for most federal statutes.
As for the original question, I don't believe that any of those species are listed under ESA or CITES either. Since they are domestic purchases, there should be no problem with any of them unless they come with some prior illegality attached to them.
By that, I mean that if the buyer is possessing them illegally, then selling them across state (or international) lines could be a Lacey Act violation.
But as long as the buyer legally has possession, it's not not a violation to purchase them domestically.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post by wollastoni on Jan 26, 2012 23:32:07 GMT -8
"And it is amazing how entomologists internalize regulations absurd and hypocrites." < very true...
|
|
|
|
Post by panzerman on Jan 27, 2012 20:09:13 GMT -8
Funny, it took the Americans ten years to repeal the insanity called "Prohibition" Remember, thats when gangsters took control of supplying booze, beer too thirsty Americans. All what this law did, was drive the supply, distribution of alcholic beverages underground. The even more stupid Lacey Act does the reverse, it makes criminals out of honest citizens who want nothing more then too pursue their entomological goals. Bet you there are thousands of specimens of homerus, hospiton, chikae, alexandrae in US collections. USFW would probably be more fanatical in going after these people, then lets say the crooked bankers on Wall Street...any bets?
John
|
|
|
|
Post by takahe on Jan 27, 2012 21:24:51 GMT -8
I would expect that's probably true, especially collections made by older collectors. I was 5 when those species were listed as CITES 1, so I never had the oppurtunity to obtain them.
But they aren't the only species covered by the Lacey Act.
|
|
|
|
Post by panzerman on Jan 28, 2012 20:10:43 GMT -8
Maybe its high time that you Americans vote for a presidential candidate that will scrap this insanity called the "Lacey Act"
John
|
|
|
|
Post by takahe on Jan 28, 2012 22:58:09 GMT -8
That would be great. I don't know much about these things, but I don't think a president can just "scrap" an existing law. I think it would have to be reviewed or something. Or tested in court.
Bradleigh
|
|
|
|
Post by jshuey on Jan 29, 2012 7:14:23 GMT -8
Maybe its high time that you Americans vote for a presidential candidate that will scrap this insanity called the "Lacey Act" John It's not really the Lacy Act that is so terrible. All it says is that the US will respect the wildlife laws of other countries. So, does that sound so bad? It's the internal laws of Mexico, Brasil, Peru, and so on, that make it difficult to collect in those countries. All the Lacey Act does, is say that the US will do its best to respect decisions made in other counties relative to wildlife. The bottom line is that it isn't all that hard to play by the rules. I've picked up permits for several countries over the last 10 years, and I know others who also have the permits to countries I've not tried. It's just a matter of building relationships, having patience (a lot of patience), and understanding what is and what is not possible. shuey |
|
|
|
Post by takahe on Jan 29, 2012 23:07:24 GMT -8
A lot of the specimens sold by domestic dealers come from Peru, so it would seem they still allow export of non-protected species.
India, Brazil, Mexico, and Spain are totally off limits as far as I know.
I was initially talking about buying specimens from US dealers that were collected and imported before their country of origin passed laws against collecting. I don't know when each country passed their laws, except that India was one of the first.
Suppose a US seller lists a Losaria rhodifer collected in the Andamans in the 1970s for sale on eBay and a US bidder buys it. Would that specimen be illegal under the current laws?
Bradleigh
|
|
|
|
Post by jshuey on Jan 30, 2012 6:22:05 GMT -8
. India, Brazil, Mexico, and Spain are totally off limits as far as I know. Not entirely, I have been able to get permits for two of those countries in the last 10 years or so. It takes time and effort, and mostly you have to offer them a product in return - Inventory and collaboration mostly. I agree that most, if not all, the specimens sold from these countries are probably in violation of the Lacy Act (and the corresponding laws of the origin country). But you can still get your boots on the ground if you are willing to do the work required up front. shuey |
|
|
|
Post by wollastoni on Jan 30, 2012 9:09:01 GMT -8
I heard it is rather easy to get Spanish permits.
|
|
