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Post by markus48 on Jan 26, 2011 9:28:37 GMT -8
While I've found local cecropia markings very uniform over the decades, every once in a while something different hatches... This female is from last season, unfortunately she eclosed way out of sync with my reared / wild collected cocoons and the local population, so remained unmated after 4 days and started laying. Don't really understand why, she eclosed from a wild cocoon and others found in the area hatched at the proper time. While it would have been nice to see what variations could have been reared, it at least presented the opportunity for a decent specimen.  I also have a pair with partial H. euryalis hindwing characteristics, they were obtained as wild collected cocoons over 30 years ago - the markings have never been seen since. The rear discal "1/2 moon" markings are broken and extended to the outer red/white bands. Have also been lucky to find a "red" variety mentioned on Oehlke's WLSS site, and again, wild collected. May post them some day... |
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Post by admin on Jan 26, 2011 11:49:32 GMT -8
I have reared euryalus for many years and I have also found occaisional unusual markings and color, including the crescent that extends way over the white band. It's just the wonder of nature. Who knows the cause of such things? I have also noticed a distinct difference in the base color of this species from different mountain ranges in Southern Calif. For example, San Diego County specimens are brighter red that LA County specimens. Is it diet? Temperature? Go figure.
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evra
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Post by evra on Jan 26, 2011 22:27:19 GMT -8
H. c. gloveri has even more variation than either H. cecropia or H. euryalus. I think the fragmented habitat because of mountain ranges in the west is more conducive to isolating populations who then adapt to different selection pressures with different color forms and variations.
I'm sure that diet makes a difference in some species though. The Rothschildia cincta I collect in the wild comes in several different color forms (brown, gray, red) and I've raised a lot now for the last several years and 99% of my offspring end up brown, even when I get ova only from red females. In the wild they eat Jatropha I think, but I always rear on Brazilian Pepper Tree since I don't have Jatropha.
On the other hand, mutations do occur as well. Look at the female C. splendens that I caught a couple of years ago (bottom of the second column).
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Post by markus48 on Jan 27, 2011 5:48:10 GMT -8
While there's plenty of geographical reasons for populations to be isolated in the SouthWest, there are no such barriers here in the Pine Barrens of NJ. We're flat as a pool table for pretty much most of my southern 1/2 of the state - from the ocean to 45 miles straight across arriving at Philadelphia.The highest elevation in the region is around 250 feet and it's only one "mountain" (the Forked River Mountain). The old landfills around here are 2nd highest places, especially the one in Toms River with the illegally dumped Union Carbide drums... Cecropia here are fond of the usual suspects, namely chokecherry, swamp maple and the occasional apple or willow. The only unusual host choice is Bayberry, a common bush found along our barrier island and brackish bay regions. Have tried to find some rhyme or reason for the occasional "mutants", but have yet to find a solid connection to their origin. Subsequent rearing of any matings hasn't produced anything of significance either. We DO have the oldest U.S. nuclear plant 10 miles away and they leak tritium only once in a while...  I'll leave finding reasons for the abberations to the professional scientists with a lot of time on their hands - and stick to what I know best, electronics. My main goal is not to overcollect, keep track of population movement, and make sure any females I have mate in safety. From areas I find cocoons, reseeding the area is my usual goal. Since the early 70's, the disasterous effects of Gypsy Moth control in the region just about wiped out the unoffending native Sats. I have yet to see a full recovery, since overpopulation of the shore region and loss of habitat don't seem to be an issue with the powers that be. In the big scheme of things, they only see expanded rateables... BTW nice drawer evra, I take it the Eacles are all oslari? |
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Post by Chris Grinter on Jan 27, 2011 8:50:19 GMT -8
Occasional mutants happen randomly, and many times that is caused by a virus or infection the larvae has before pupating. Another common cause is shifts in the temperature - no need to go looking for pollution or radiation poisoning. Actually the slightly lighter variation of your Cecropia isn't all that striking, just a bit lighter than normal. Looks well within the normal range of the species. If you rear more insects you'll find some hold over for a year or more, and sometimes they pop out at bizarre times. Just how they are wired.
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evra
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Post by evra on Jan 27, 2011 21:39:34 GMT -8
Yeah those are E. oslari. Most of them are just normal colored ones. There are lots of interesting color variants that I see in the wild but I haven't collected. Most of those specimens are some of the first that I ever collected, and I really pretty much ignore them now.
That particular mutation in C. splendens I think is genetic and being selected for in the wild population in the Patagonia Mtns near Harshaw. I've seen some males with unusually small amounts of cream coloration in the same spot since I took that one, but none were as extreme as that female. I don't really understand what survival advantage it would provide though.
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Post by markus48 on Jan 29, 2011 6:58:59 GMT -8
Hi Chris, thanks for your thoughts - where are you from? What stuck me about this particular female is that after years of finding/hatching wild specimens in Ocean County, finally have a different one. (last one was back in my teens and still in the collection) Whether it's within the normal parameters for the species, can only say not for here. I only keep a small series - have little use for a drawer full since they all look cloned - sent most of my older fading specimens for genetic research. Cecropia here are like monarchs - no matter what you do to them, they're virtually identical except for size. The other strange thing I noticed was the white coloration is different on the fore vs. hindwings. Maybe it's because we have the oldest nuclear plant in the USA only a few miles away...  Kidding aside, any comments are welcome. The male below is atypical for color and markings of the local colonies (a bit greasy, but has been taken care of). The female was from one of 14 cocoons collected at the same site last winter - this was the first oddball I've seen in a long time. All were collected at the same time and stored identically. Luck of the draw I guess, but not going to look too much into it... On the oslari, had reared some this year supposedly from darker form individuals. Not familiar enough rearing the species if the color forms are passed on or you just get the occasional hit - any info would be appreciated. Imperialis here are super-variable, but one only finds a true dark form male once in a blue moon, and never the cream shades found with oslari. |
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evra
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Post by evra on Jan 30, 2011 12:51:16 GMT -8
Honestly I'm not exactly sure how the color forms in oslari work. I always rear them from wild caught females so I never know what type of male bred with the female. I can tell you that yellow males that look like E. imperialis are the most common, followed by the dark pink males. In some areas, the two forms occur together and very rarely hybridize, and in other spots they seem to hybridize very frequently. The females have unusual color forms as well. Most are yellow and look pretty much like a typical E. imperialis female. However a good percentage are mostly yellow, but the markings on the wings are chocolate brown. Then there are intermediate/hybrids. Here's an unusual one that I took this past summer, I think it's pink crossed with chocolate and it almost looks blue/purple. I would say that it's more than an 'occasional' hit though. The variability of the species is so great that it's really hard to classify any as 'normal' since there are so many forms that are common. And from ova of the yellow form females, I've gotten several forms of both males and females. Attachments:
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Post by mothman27 on Oct 7, 2016 6:02:50 GMT -8
I know this thread is very old but I noticed that this female also has much more rounded forewing tips than I have seen. is this normal?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2016 15:14:54 GMT -8
Got these neat color forms in NM this summer. Automeris zephyria on left and Automeris io neomexicana on right.   |
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Post by joee30 on Oct 9, 2016 19:28:25 GMT -8
There are some intergrading between H. euryalus, and H. gloveri here in the Eastern Sierra Nevadas. Found a couple of areas to try for them next season, time permitting. Will plan on going to AZ in late July/early August to try again to get ova for H. gloveri. Have euryalus up the mountains in the Truckee,CA area in May/June. Maybe might go early to L.A. and try to get some from down there this spring.
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Post by 58chevy on Oct 10, 2016 12:23:04 GMT -8
I've heard that the deep red-orange/grayish form of E imperialis is considered to be a subspecies. Is this the case, or is it just a normal variation of imperialis imperialis?
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Post by mothman27 on Oct 10, 2016 14:02:11 GMT -8
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Kidding aside, any comments are welcome.
