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Post by nomad on Mar 23, 2013 3:23:15 GMT -8
One butterfly supplier has recently advertised specimens of Papilio [Chilasa moerneri [Aurivilianus 1919] as the rarest Swallowtail in the World. Is this in fact the rarest Swallowtail species that can be bought today and judging from the price of these specimens this Swallowtail must be among the most sought after. New Ireland seems to have been little explored and species such as the almost equally rare Graphuim kosii have been discovered there in the montane moss forests in recent years. I find C. moerneri a fascinating species. I believe B. D. Abrera declared it extinct but it was rediscovered on the Lelet Plateau in the Central New Ireland mountain range by Dr Chris Muller [ who also discovered the G. Kosii ? ] Dr Chris Muller produced a paper for the Australian Enotomologist ' Notes on the Life History of Chilasa moerneri moerneri 28 [1]27-31 2000, and I would welcome a copy of this article to view [ just PM me for email ] I believe the subspecies Papilio [ Chilasa ] moerneri mayrhoferi [Bang-Haas, 1939 ] from New Britain is even rarer. I have seen specimens of this very rare species on the Insect Forum pre 2011 archives. These archives seem to be offline right now ? One of these moerneri specimens shown by John [Panzerman] was actually taken or bred by Chris Muller in 2005. Some lovely and historic specimens of this mysterious species can be seen at www.swallowtails.net/P_moerneri.htmI would welcome any further information on this rare species and your thoughts on your ideas of the rarest Swallowtail that can be still found today. Peter. |
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Post by pittendrighinsects on Mar 23, 2013 6:03:48 GMT -8
Isn't P. elephanor from India much rarer, since, at least with this species, stable colonies have been found, yet with P. elephanor, it has only been recently rediscovered with only one specimen. I understand that this species may be rarer to obtain and maybe even rarer in collections, but P. elephanor is probably much more local and hard to find in nature.
Quintin
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Post by wollastoni on Mar 23, 2013 6:16:13 GMT -8
Chilasa moerneri is indeed a fascinating species but is regularly offered for sale. There have been many expeditions to New Britain and New Ireland in the last years by Müller, Wills and Japanese. Robert Westphal also went there about 10 years ago.
I doubt it is the rarer Papilio on the market.
P. elephenor has recently been discovered on new spots. There are some old collection in France and the UK with many of them. It is rare on the market because it flies in protected area.
Not sure if you call it "swallowtail" but for example Graphium levassori appears to me to be much rarer than those 2 species. We can also speak about Papilio lampsacus that is maybe extincted now...
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Post by Adam Cotton on Mar 23, 2013 6:58:24 GMT -8
Peter,
It's Graphium kosii, not kossi. I have a paper b/w photocopy of Mueller, 2001. If you send me your e-mail address I'll scan to pdf and e-mail it to you.
Olivier,
I really doubt that P. lampsacus is extinct, it is a highland species and there is still plenty of protected highland habitat on Java. It is more likely that collectors don't go to the right places any more due to habitat protection. I would expect for instance that it is still present in the highlands on G. Gede and other mountains near Bogor, and may also be found further east on Java.
I do agree that G. levassori must be classed as much rarer than P. moerneri, surely it is one of the rarest Papilionidae except maybe Parnassius nandadevinensis, if that is actually a good species.
Adam.
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Post by wollastoni on Mar 23, 2013 7:03:23 GMT -8
Adam, I agree with you about lampsacus, that's why I wrote "maybe extinct".
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Post by nomad on Mar 23, 2013 7:22:46 GMT -8
Thank you Adam for the kind offer of the C. moerneri paper. I have sent you a PM. I have corrected to Graphuim kosii.
Peter.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Mar 23, 2013 8:54:27 GMT -8
Parnassius nadnadevinensis is probably a hybrid between P. acdestis and stoliczkanus or a very aberrant specimen of some of these species. Only one specimens is known and I do not believe that it is a separate species. I hope I will find a way to Prague to see it or take some legs for DNA if it would be possible. Radusho, I was hoping you might comment on nandadevinensis. I gave this as an example of what must be the rarest Papilionid since it is based on a single specimen. I would agree with you that it is highly unlikely that it really represents a separate species, but the single specimen known doesn't really answer the question of what it is by itself. Even if you can get legs from the specimen I would doubt that there will be sufficient good DNA remaining now due to the age of the specimen and also the fact that it will almost certainly have been relaxed and spread after being originally papered on capture. Adam. |
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Post by nomad on Mar 23, 2013 11:01:38 GMT -8
Graphuim levassori certainly seems to be endangered in its Comoro Islands montane habitat and must be one of the rarest Papilionidae. I am glad that some of you are optimistic about P. lampsacus on Java. I thought that this rarity had not been seen for many years and the Island in recent times was well explored for its butterflies. I wonder when P. lampsacus was last seen there? Would the giant and very beautiful P. homerus also come into the equation of one the rarest Swallowtails. I am not sure of its current status on Jamaica but I have read it occurs in very small numbers.
Peter.
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Post by wollastoni on Mar 23, 2013 13:12:44 GMT -8
True nomad, homerus is also very rare in collection, despite its protection that most of the time increase the number of specimens on the market.
But I think levassori is even rarer in collection.
Some members here have homerus in their collection, never heard of someone with a levassori. If someone have one, I would love to see the picture.
Some French collectors tried to find levassori in its habitat at the good period... in vain.
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cyane
Junior Member
Posts: 47
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Post by cyane on Mar 23, 2013 21:01:20 GMT -8
I remember seeing Muller and Tennents paper on G kosii online. so I did a quick search on google for ' "c j muller" lepidoptera' and found quite a few results. The moerneri paper was not amongst them so I will have to ask Chis Muller if I can upload a copy here. (Chris is a personal friend, I have known him since he was 17 years old, but I wont embarrass him here with tales of some of his youthful escapades: Such as when he was lost in a remote wilderness area of Cape York Peninsula, and had to set off his epirb for a rescue by helicopter lol) Here are links to some of Chris' papers: A list of some of Chris' Papers: www.molecularecology.flinders.edu.au/molecular-ecology-lab/people/recent-graduates/chris-muller/A New Species of Graphium Scopoli (Lepidoptera: Papilionidae) from the Bismarck Archipelago, Papua New Guinea C.J. MÜLLER 1 AND W.J. TENNENT 2 1 (needs to be copied and pasted) australianmuseum.net.au/Uploads/Journals/17879/1303_complete[1].pdfPhylogenetics and biogeography of a spectacular Old World radiation of butterflies: the subtribe Mycalesina (Lepidoptera: Nymphalidae: Satyrini) Ullasa Kodandaramaiah,1 David C Lees,2,3 Chris J Müller,4 Elizabeth Torres,5 K Praveen Karanth,6 and Niklas Wahlberg1,7 www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2898688/Palaeo island-affinities revisited – Biogeography and systematics of the Indo-Pacific genus Cethosia Fabricius (Lepidoptera: Nymphalidae) www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790310003003A New Species of Cethosia and a New Subspecies of Delias (Lepidoptera: Nymphalidae and Pieridae) from New Ireland, Papua New Guinea C.J. MÜLLER australianmuseum.net.au/Uploads/Journals/17886/1304_complete.pdfDelving into Delias Hübner (Lepidoptera: Pieridae): fine-scale biogeography, phylogenetics and systematics of the world's largest butterfly genus onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jbi.12040/abstract?systemMessage=Pay+Per+View+will+be+unavailable+for+upto+3+hours+from+06%3A00+EST+March+23rd+on+Wiley+Online+Library.+We+apologise+for+the+inconvenience&userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=David Hall Sydney, Australia |
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cyane
Junior Member
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Post by cyane on Mar 23, 2013 21:46:15 GMT -8
PS. So far as I know this is only the 3rd recorded specimen of Papilio tryoni. I've written a paper about it, yet to be published, in which I "prove" that its not a good species.
Ridgetop approx 2kms West of Kolomola Village
Sothern Highlands
Santa Isabel Is
Solomon Islands
approx 500m
October 2003
D Hall Leg
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Post by nomad on Mar 24, 2013 0:42:57 GMT -8
David
Thank you for all the information for the papers relating to the discoveries of Chris Muller and John Tennent in New Ireland and New Britain. Chris and John are certainly busy field lepidopterists. Among many other butterflies, not only were they the first to find G. kosii in the mountain moss forests at the Southern end of New Ireland but they later found a remarkable new subspecies of that lovely butterfly ' gigantor ' in New Britain.
Your discovery that Papilio tryoni from Santa Isabel is not a good species will be sure to interest all the Papilionidae enthusiasts here.
Is there any information on the C. moerneri subspecies mayrhoferi from New Britain? Has it been rediscovered there?
Regards Peter.
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Post by africaone on Mar 24, 2013 2:05:39 GMT -8
... at least two rarer things from Africa than levassori
Graphium aurivilliusi, never caught this last century, known by a handfull specimen
Graphium abri described from central africa and known by only 2 males despite very extensive collecting in this region.
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Post by wollastoni on Mar 24, 2013 2:35:52 GMT -8
Thanks Thierry, any pictures somewhere ?
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Post by africaone on Mar 24, 2013 2:49:25 GMT -8
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