wzinke
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by wzinke on May 2, 2015 19:20:50 GMT -8
Thank you guys for your kind words. All the best to you! Yes, I am totally humiliated but have learned a valuable lesson! I need to ask you all before I jump on an exciting 'one of a kind' specimen! I am out of collecting now until I pay off this debt, shouldn't have done it in first place. UPDATE: Ebay refuses to talk to me, they will not return my messages or calls.....99Dmitiry99 has blocked me after I pleaded with him to return this fake... I have 100% ebay feedback ratings over 1000 purchases over the past 10 years, VIP designation and they will not talk to me! Hopefully this will be a warning to future suckers! Wish I used the credit card but used the Paypal Credit service,,,,maybe I will call Paypal to see what they can do [although I think they are one in the same]....Thanks again Ornithorchid for the info about the green underwing areas that are hidden during UV exposure, at least I know for sure it is a fake!
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Post by vabrou on Jul 5, 2015 5:05:59 GMT -8
I must make a serious taxonomical comment about describing forms. No one can legitimately describe a form of any species, no matter what the reason. A form has no standing in the ICZN. These various 'forms' names have no validity, and personally myself and other taxonomically minded persons laugh when we see uninformed people paying huge sums of money for something that has a fake identity. If it has a form name assigned to it, it is fake. If you think I am wrong, you have no understanding about any taxonomical rules and what a species is to begin with. These little variation in color and other characteristics of a species are properly referred to as phenotype variations, and never, never, assigned a meaningless form name.
There are many scammers in China, South Pacific, Russia, etc., who specialize in selling specimens with fake and meaningless identities (trinomial species names, quadnomial species names, etc., inferring great rareness or exceptional value. Who buys these fake specimens, it seems mostly uninformed novice collectors who often have shoe-box sized insect collections of assorted material representing little or no scientific value whatsoever, but want to have some expensive specimens in their collection to boast to their friends that they possess these overpriced useless, and meaningless fake named specimens.
Within any species, many phenotypes exist, I have published on hundreds of moth and butterfly species with multiple and various phenotypes, these are all the same one species. Can you imagine what our scientific literature would look like if I assigned 42 form names to a single moth species ? And another collector 100 miles away from me finds 15 additional phenotypes to add to my 42 and he names those forms. Luckily no one can legitimately name a form in scientific literature. Anyone trying to describe such a form name in a valid scientific journal, these manuscripts are never accepted for publication. I say to all the foolish collectors who fall for these scams, where is the original published description of these so-call forms ? Where is the scientific literature describing it, not simply some other fool talking about these forms, but the actual original description ??
To even discuss this matter is a waste of time. Understand that 'forms' are simply phenotype variations of a single species, nothing else. Having an assigned an invalid name to such a 'form' is meaningless and displays ignorance and no understanding of the rules of the ICZN.
"A sucker is born every minute"
Vernon Antoine Brou Jr. Abita Springs, Louisiana USA
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 13:03:42 GMT -8
WOW!!!!! a sucker is born every minute..............some people collect specimens without having the high level of taxonomical knowledge. This doesn't mean they are a sucker for spending lots of cash on one specimen. I'm sure you had to start somewhere? if he KNEW it was fake, he wouldn't have purchased it... talk about sympathy. If writing the reply was a waste of time to you, why write it?
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Post by joee30 on Jul 9, 2015 15:47:26 GMT -8
As much as I'd like to sympathize with the person who was scammed, Vernon is right. Many people don't do any research, and blindly buy bugs that are fake forms or species, especially in Ornithoptera. That is one of the reason I don't buy bugs. I have noticed many people that complain about being scammed over some birdwing form in other sites, yet they are suckers for not doing research before taking a big risk.
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Post by stapleton on Jul 9, 2015 18:24:36 GMT -8
Currently, the guy is pushing four (4) males of victoriae ssp.s on eBay, three (3) of which are MISIDENTIFIED (except for regis on the yellow background). Whether this is negligence or malice - just use some care...
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 10, 2015 8:30:42 GMT -8
When you say 'misidentified' do you mean that the data is fake, or the places of origin are correct but he's using the wrong names? Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if you mean the former.
Adam.
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Post by stapleton on Jul 10, 2015 19:05:26 GMT -8
The data he is using should somehow dictate the name, I believe, and/or vice versa, otherwise, the entire "chemistry" turns senseless. So, if I, say, wanted to list a nominate victoriae as an isabellae, I'd surely indicate Santa Isabel as the place of capture, no matter what island that particular specimen really comes from (Guadalcanal). And (NB!) first I have to select a nominate victoriae, which does look like isabellae... Another obvious thing is that, apparently having a continuous supply source of victoriae for some time already, the guy is still absolutely ignorant in respect to quite a number of elementary things. His ability to learn, analyze, and compare (assuming he had one) has fallen a victim to his cupidity (a pretty common case), hence ANYTHING is possible...
Victor
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2015 23:15:32 GMT -8
Stick to beetles it's easier!!!!!!!!!
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Post by joee30 on Jul 11, 2015 9:39:20 GMT -8
I do agree with that, Stringer. Beetles are a lot more easier to manage.
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wzinke
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by wzinke on May 4, 2016 10:01:19 GMT -8
Yes, beetles are better! I just now finished paying of this wonderful and rare butterfly [over a year later]...I do truly hope that I have maybe helped someone to avoid my miserable mistake! To those who helped, thanks for your posts..... [Beware of 99Dmitiry99!!!]
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Post by digitalfreaky on Dec 5, 2021 12:06:26 GMT -8
Hello Will. My name is Fabrizio, I'm a huge birdwing collector from Italy. The guy you bought this specimen from is called Vladimir Lunkov and he's an international scammer (he sells a lot of fake birdwings). Plus he's also an international smuggler of O. alexandrae. I am really sorry for what happened to you and if you want I can show your photos on the Facebook Birdwing scammers group so that he will get what he deserves. Let me know if I can be of any assistance bro I've been dealing with scammers for years and I know how to push them down their "temple". If you want a real azure victoriae, email me at: digitalfreaky@gmail.com I have a few. I don't sell my specimen but I do a ton of exchanges so if you're interested in a real one (it doesn't look THAT blue/purple but it's near) we can figure something out. Cheers bro. Fabri
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Post by exoticimports on Dec 5, 2021 13:46:01 GMT -8
Fabrizio, welcome. What an awesome name, very Italian.
Are yours from Ronangga or Rendova?
Chuck
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Post by jhyatt on Dec 5, 2021 17:23:22 GMT -8
On the subject of color-modified birdwings: I've many times read that "blue" forms can be manufactured by UV treatment of normal specimens.
Just out of curiosity I once UV-irradiated (2537 angstrom Hg vapor lamp) a broken old priamus FW overnight, and saw absolutely no change in the color. Green was still green.
Can anyone confirm, through actual observation or experience, that UV light can in fact make green birdwings turn blue? How is it done? Or is this just an old wives' tale, and some other method is used?
Are there confirmed (e.g., caught by a reputable collector) wild-caught O. v. niclasi specimens in existence?
Curiously, jh
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Post by exoticimports on Dec 5, 2021 17:49:33 GMT -8
Yes, as cited previously I’ve had wild caught and locally farmed niclasi. Ranongga Island had a pretty steady supply. And they had no lights, much less MV or BL.
Chuck
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Post by trehopr1 on Dec 5, 2021 20:04:37 GMT -8
Chuck, do you have any pictures of these natural occurring blueish Victorias ?
I do not deny that a few abberant examples may exist but, I have a hard time believing that any of them would truly be (as blue) as any of the fake examples that I have seen pictured over these last 10 years.
Maybe there is some recessive gene at work on the "very few" that show any hint of blue.
I have probably seen near 50 (male) specimens of all the various Victoria subspecies in my time (in at least 10 different collections); and never saw a one that had any hint of blue in it. I did however, run across three with the red highlights on the wingtips.
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