California 'Scientific collecting permits'

Chris, look at what I'm saying, closely. Nowhere am I advocating breaking the law. Yes, the CA law does apply to real scientific collecting and professional biological survey work, particularly in regards to ESA work. I never denied that. My comments are specifically in regards to "backyard" recreational collecting. There are only two real possibilities here: that recreational entomologists have been violating the law in California since 1957, technically or otherwise, or that they haven't.

I am not referring to the "similarity of appearance" blues in FL under the ESA--I have been told that technically, one needs a state permit to collect any part of any living or formerly living thing in the state, on any kind of property. I have been told something like this by two or three people. The law gives LE officers individual discretion in enforcement. It probably won't be enforced for a recreational collector on their city block, but for someone selling hundreds of E. atala pupae, from their own yard or not, the story may be entirely different. Texas has a law protecting "all" wildlife on highway right-of-ways, but the law is (for now) specifically not enforced for insects. Like I said before, Arizona also has a SCP law--maybe it is enforced less than California's (AZ State Parks do not prohibit collecting, also), but it's on the books. What I am saying is that if one really wants to go down the "rabbit hole", almost any collecting could be technically called illegal, anywhere.

Getting back to California--under an extremely strict application killing pests--spraying ants in your kitchen, stepping on a roach--would be against the law and has been since 1957. Is it really? Are extermination companies required to get the SCP? As for fishing, under a strict interpretation, there would be no difference between bait insects and recreational insects. CA state parks prohibit the take of everything without a state permit and the SCP, period, and the terms of CA State Parks permits make clear that there has to be a very good reason for the collecting--"recreational" is not a valid reason. As for "propagation"--well, as you may know, California is probably the leading state for licensed commercial butterfly breeding (like for weddings) and release operations and is surely within the top five for butterfly vivariums/exhibits, both of which obviously involve "propagation". These are obviously operating in plain sight, under the watchful eye of big brother--are they getting hammered with this? Finally, California is also probably the leading state in the USA for insect shows where specimens and livestock are dealt--at least half of which come from within California. These shows are carefully watched by wildlife agents--has someone gotten busted, yet, for selling P. zelicaon or mourning cloak pupae there?

I'm not saying you don't have a legitimate concern, just that posting that right now a permit is required for any and all insect-catching in California is premature and panic-mongering. If/when the state of CA gives a ruling that this is required for any and all handling of insects (because picking something up or taking something in to rear, even if it is then released, is "take"), then I will accept that and have no choice but to abide by that. Until then, we all know that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" and that is usually a woeful thing.

If all "breeding" is covered then people raising crickets to feed to herps, etc. are in a lot of trouble!

You don't think people are gathering cricket stock out of their backyard to get a culture started up?

Let me ask this--why do you keep looking for ways to "nail" us? I already said--if the state comes down with a definitive ruling on their 1957 policy that goes against us, I will have to abide by it. For now, there are a number of butterfly farms (just to name one insect culturing operation) that legally and publicly operate in the state. If they ever get shut down, Lord help us, but I won't live in a state of paranoia before that.

Sigh.

Let me break this down for you. It doesn't matter if the butterfly farm is ONLY breeding monarchs and painted ladies (which is what 99% of them are selling). They are breeding (="taking", "propagating") California insects. Yes, they have to get the correct certifications from Aphis and the like but their operations are legal, public, and open. Maybe they are perpetuating a captive line for multiple generations but where do you think the parent stock came from, and where do you think their occasional outcross stock comes from? The butterfly fairy? To the best of my knowledge, California monarch stock for release can ONLY come from within California, not even other states west of the continental divide like Arizona or Nevada. So, you can do the math, I think.

What is your goal here Chris? What exactly are you trying to do? I seriously am beginning to question your motives in perpetuating this. Are you trying to get this enforced on us all? Is it that you think you will win brownie points for your permit applications by making these "goody two shoes" assertions? I'm scratching my head on this one. You are not an employee of Cal Fish and Game, and as far as I know you are not close personal friends with any. What are you trying to prove here? I think that from this point out, I will ignore all further replies from you. I'll listen to the state, not one lepidopterist who has some (in my opinion) rather weird motive for lecturing us all.

I don't know what all the bickering is all about, but Chris does have a point. Sadly, the state of California's wildlife agencies are run by bureaucrats, so they enforce anything they can on the common folk. Same goes with fishing.