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Post by homard on Mar 15, 2011 6:10:52 GMT -8
Thanks for comments, friends. Many of my specimens of meadii are from Beartooth Plateau  No white female though, alas... It's only IMHO, but viluiensis is not a subspecies of hecla. It is a species on its own. Under viluiensis I understand that orange species (males w/o of androconia), which occur in NE. Transbaikal, N. & E. Yakutia and NW. Chukotka (I collected myself at those places). in Yakutia and Chukotka it's sympatric with hyperborea. Unfortunately, never collected tunkuna in E. Sayan, (though discovered and described two new butterflies from there). I never seen it in other collections. So I do not know, what is it - viluiensis or hyperborea, or something very special... Respectfully, Alexei |
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Post by jrlaiho on Mar 15, 2011 6:47:37 GMT -8
Gieshuber discussed tunkuna in one of his articles (Grieshuber , J. (2005a): What is Colias tunkuna Austaut, 1912 (Lepidoptera, Pieridae)? - HeliosVI: 65-68. ). If I remember correctly (without checking) he concluded that tunkuna belongs to viluiensis. But at least it is listed as a subjectiv synonym in Grieshuber & Lamas 2007: A Synonymic List of the Genus Colias FABRICIUS, 1807 (Lepidoptera: Pieridae)
I think the last words regarding the hecla-complex (including viluiensis) has yet not been said. There are many opinions...
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Post by lordpandarus on Mar 15, 2011 14:51:05 GMT -8
I don't collect these. I only have 2 Colias sp to represent the genus. One yellow one and a large orange species from China
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Post by bobw on Mar 16, 2011 3:18:20 GMT -8
Josef and I spent a long time searching for the types of tunkuna with no success, we found other Austaut types in the Rothschild collection but these were missing. However, the OD clearly states that they have no sex-brand so how people included them under hyperborea is a mystery. Recent material from Sayan shows that they are merely a synonym of chilkana.
The best way to think of hecla is as a "superspecies" comprising the "semispecies" hecla, viluensis (note the spelling!) and sulitelma. There are some populations that contain phenotypes identical to hecla and viluensis as well as intermediates; that's why we believe that they are not full species.
A lot more research needs to be done on these groups as the history appears to be very complicated.
Bob
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Post by jrlaiho on Mar 16, 2011 5:10:26 GMT -8
And for those not familiar with the species, here are some examples. Starting from top: - viluensis chilkana (indeed viluensis, not viluiensis - once a misspelling is introduced it is difficult to forget it  - viluensis viluensis - hecla zamolodchikovi - hecla sulitelma Note that 'superspecies' are closely related, but more or less distinctive (=full) species. If hecla and viluensis are not considered full species, eg. the 'ring species' concept may describe the situation better. In my opinion hecla (incl. viluensis) is a good example of a ring species. The question remains, are they distinct enough to be different species and thus semispecies of the same superspecies, or only subspecies of one species. As you said, a lot more research is needed... |
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Post by homard on Mar 16, 2011 7:54:19 GMT -8
Somehow I do not like such terms like 'semispecies', 'superspecies'... ;D Bob, have you & Josef used DNA analysis in your work? As you mentioned in this thread, the genitalia of Colias are too similar. When I tried to do some research in mid-90th (to satisfy my endless curiosity ), I dissected many specimens (perhaps a hundred or more) of various species of Colias. I was so emabarrassed with the discovery that the comparative morphology of the genitalia in the genus almost doesn't 'work', that I gave up... Here is my draver with viluensis So, viluiensis is just an incorrect subsequent spelling? Never knew this! Thanks, Bob!  Next, a drawer with hecla For me, they look like the different species, especially by the females  Bob, what about the current status of aquilonaris? AFAIR, there should be a paper on this topic by Grieshuber, Lvovsky & Lukhtanov, but I have no access to the sources other than the Net. Once there is no of PDF-file on the Net, is too bad for me. N.B. My Colias collection was set up in 1996 the last time, never updated since. Thus the name labels might look somewhat incorrect for somebody |
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Post by bobw on Mar 16, 2011 9:49:43 GMT -8
I'm not sure that anybody likes the terms superspecies, semispecies etc., particularly as they're not recognised by the code and so have no standing, but they are useful to help demonstrate relationships where taxa have such fluid phenotypes as the hecla complex.
We have not done any DNA analysis as we have no facilties to do it. However, I have to say that I don't have much confidence in this at the moment as the DNA studies I've read on Colias frequently defy all logic from morphological, biological and ecological points of view and frequently contradict each other.
Your photos don't seem to have come out properly. Populations of hecla and viluensis seem to represent different species when compared from remote parts of their range, as do viluensis and sulitelma, but there are intermediate areas where they seem to merge and where it's difficult to assign specimens to one or the other species.
I don't have access to my library right now but I can probably send you copies of relevant papers; aquilonaris presents a particularly interesting case.
I really don't have time to take many photos at the moment and my reference collection is being reorganised so is a bit of a mess, but if I get a chance over the next couple of weeks I'll try to post photographic evidence of these theories.
Bob
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Post by africaone on Mar 16, 2011 10:22:07 GMT -8
We have not done any DNA analysis as we have no facilties to do it. However, I have to say that I don't have much confidence in this at the moment as the DNA studies I've read on Colias frequently defy all logic from morphological, biological and ecological points of view and frequently contradict each other. I done Dna barcoding on African Colias ("electo" complex s.l.) and in this case (I can't tell for orthers) it seems to work on it and gave a logical result. result will be published. Thierry |
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Post by jrlaiho on Mar 16, 2011 11:58:38 GMT -8
Having done COI (barcoding) gene on most Asian Colias, and tried several other regions with little success, I would from my personal experience and from what I have read say that we still do not have a gene region that would help solving species problems within Colias. If the “hecla complex” is a typical ring species, DNA would additionally be of limited help. DNA differences in different parts of the range would be expected, but that does not exclude the possibility that the intermediate populations interbreed, and thus linking the different populations together. Being closely related, and obviously shearing the same ancestor, great DNA differences between hecla and viluensis is unlikely even if they were “different species”. So, using DNA is not at all that easy. Well, this is getting a bit too philosophical for “show your favourite specimen”... |
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Post by boghaunter1 on Mar 16, 2011 12:12:26 GMT -8
Not sure if this belongs here, but there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable Colias experts here now... I posted this photo a while ago on the old forum asking for opinions but nothing resulted. Here is a photo of a white/albino? male Clouded Sulphur, C. p. philodice. I understand they are very rare, but know nothing more. As well the specimen is smaller than normal (30mm) & is not just a badly flightworn specimen - it is definitely white with no yellow scaling. An aberration only? Thanks for any opinions...  John K. Attachments:
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Post by bobw on Mar 16, 2011 13:02:58 GMT -8
Alexei
Yes, "viluiensis" is an incorrect subsequent spelling. Menetries first described it as viluensis then republished it as "viluiensis". Every subsequent author used "viluiensis" until Tshikolovets discovered the correct spelling in 2002.
Please send me a PM with your email address.
Bob
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Post by bobw on Mar 18, 2011 12:14:03 GMT -8
Here is a photo of a white/albino? male Clouded Sulphur, C. p. philodice. I understand they are very rare, but know nothing more. As well the specimen is smaller than normal (30mm) & is not just a badly flightworn specimen - it is definitely white with no yellow scaling. An aberration only? Thanks for any opinions... It's a bit difficult to see what it's like really with the blue background. White male Colias are incerdibly rare. The only one I've ever seen was a C. thisoa that a European dealer had a couple of years ago. Interestingly, there is a series of white male C. hecla in the Copenhagen museum. It seems that they were doing a survey of ground-dwelling insects in Greenland and found these in the pitfall traps. The detergent or whatever they used in these traps bleached the specimens completely white! Your specimen is clearly an aberration, and a very rare one. Bob |
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Post by boghaunter1 on Mar 20, 2011 9:38:19 GMT -8
Thanks for your reply Bob,
I will rephotograph it against a proper background & post again...when I relocate the specimen in my collection! It is a personally collected wild specimen, not bred, faded, bleached, etc.
John K.
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Post by boghaunter1 on Mar 20, 2011 12:45:46 GMT -8
Bob, I put better  photos in the new thread started by Alex B. on his white male C. phiolodice. John K. |
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Post by nomad on Dec 21, 2013 2:01:46 GMT -8
Homard, must have missed them , I was not a member then, but I am enjoying your Colias specimens and the others who posted theirs here. Wonderful Genus. |
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photos in the new thread started by Alex B. on his white male C. phiolodice.