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Post by beetlehorn on May 1, 2016 16:30:43 GMT -8
I couldn't have said it any better exoticimports! Just because a law exists doesn't necessarily mean it is right. Laws are passed by bureaucrats and lawyers for so many political reasons, but mostly for their own interests, many of which are totally unjustified.
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Post by gordonsnelling on Jun 29, 2016 16:15:39 GMT -8
So let me get this right you are saying it is ok violate a countries laws and it is ok to steal from them. Your examples are like comparing apples and oranges. The country has the right o enact any laws they see fit. It is the responsibility of the visitors to follow those laws regardless of whether they believe they are right and fair. They are guests there and as guests they need to follow those rules. It is people like this that are often partly responsible for the enactment of these kind of laws. If you don't like the rules don't visit. There is the possibility they did not knowingly violate the rule but I suspect under these circumstances this is not the case. If you were visiting a friend with a shoes off policy in their house would you go tramping around in there with your shoes on?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 17:51:34 GMT -8
Maybe it's time to re-think some of those laws...if you push people that is what happens.
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Post by exoticimports on Jun 30, 2016 4:21:42 GMT -8
So let me get this right you are saying it is ok violate a countries laws and it is ok to steal from them. .... The country has the right o enact any laws they see fit. It is the responsibility of the visitors to follow those laws regardless of whether they believe they are right and fair. They are guests there and as guests they need to follow those rules. I suppose the best "guest" to ask would be Raoul Wallenberg, if it were possible. So far as a country having a "right" to enact any law it seems fit, as an American benefitting from the illegal practices of the country's founders, I disagree. So would George Washington, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson. "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson "whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.." Declaration of Independence And jumping forward a couple hundred years, it appears the sentiment did not disappear "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." Martin Luther King For that matter, countries do not enact laws, men do. And typically these men, politicians, act in the best interest of themselves, either as an individual or as a body, and not in the best interest of the people, the country, or the environment. It is polite to respect the culture. So far as respecting the laws, that may or may not be a wise decision, but it certainly is not a moral responsibility. Chuck
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Post by gordonsnelling on Jun 30, 2016 14:22:30 GMT -8
Maybe so if the person doing the trampling is a resident of that country but it is not the right or obligation of a foreigner to trample on another countries laws.
So you are still saying it is ok to steal another countries biodiversity for your personal or financial gain.
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 1, 2016 5:22:58 GMT -8
Maybe so if the person doing the trampling is a resident of that country but it is not the right or obligation of a foreigner to trample on another countries laws. So you are still saying it is ok to steal another countries biodiversity for your personal or financial gain. What is a country? Who gets to define country? If I catch butterflies in Biak, who am I "stealing" from? According to your definition I'd be stealing from the Jakarta government. If I catch butterflies in Mosul, am I "stealing" from Kurdistan (which isn't recognized), the Peshmerga, the Iraq government, or ISIS? If I catch an ornithoptera on Kolombangara in the illegal Malaysian logging concession, does it matter? Does it make sense to ban import/export of ornithoptera while whole regions are being wiped out by logging? If Taliban blows up historical buddhas in a territory they control, are they violating laws?
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Post by gordonsnelling on Jul 1, 2016 15:57:37 GMT -8
No point in going any further here I guess as it is apparent that you condone and encourage the illegal collection and trafficking in wildlife.
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Post by wingedwishes on Jul 2, 2016 8:36:31 GMT -8
By letter of the law, you are in violation of the Lacy Act if there is a dead butterfly on the grill of your vehicle as you enter America from Canada. Is this enforced - nope. Should it be? Hmmm - what if the driver has packaged some butterflies in newsprint and affixed them to his grill? Both are illegal. This is where a good judicial system comes in or better yet, good wild life officers.
Last point - Which is worse: A: eating candy whose palm oil ingredients came from rain forest destruction or B: sending a farmed butterfly from a rainforest to the USA with out a permit? "B" gets you in trouble while "A" gets trees logged and your body fat.
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rjb
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Post by rjb on Jul 3, 2016 8:53:06 GMT -8
I would just add that law-breaking is very common- maybe almost admired in the USA. Songs about Bonnie and Clyde and the James Gang etc. Here in NM, we have very dry conditions and fireworks are mostly illegal and people are being begged not to use them. For the last week and peaking tomorrow night there is firework activity everywhere. Neighbors have been doing the illegal ones extensively. Afraid of getting caught? No the neighbor is a policeman, he is safe. Other of my neighbors are foreign nationals from China, also using illegal fireworks, but China has the longest tradition for that activity. Anyone ever seen someone exceed the speed limit? But that is illegal!
Law breaking is rampant. Making philosophical arguments about respecting other countries laws is fine but completely out of touch with reality.
Rick
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Post by gordonsnelling on Jul 3, 2016 12:55:35 GMT -8
So it's ok to break the law because everyone is doing it? Shameful attitude, we should be at the forefront of promoting responsible behavior. Ah well I guess I am just too old school for this new modern world. I guess I am just delusional, but it almost makes me ashamed to be associated with this new crowd of insect enthusiasts.
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Post by bichos on Jul 3, 2016 13:36:25 GMT -8
What a ridiculous argument. A fear of ridiculous authority must be such a bore...
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 5, 2016 4:43:58 GMT -8
So it's ok to break the law because everyone is doing it? Shameful attitude, we should be at the forefront of promoting responsible behavior. Ah well I guess I am just too old school for this new modern world. I guess I am just delusional, but it almost makes me ashamed to be associated with this new crowd of insect enthusiasts. Answer my questions before pontificating.
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rjb
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Post by rjb on Jul 5, 2016 6:23:36 GMT -8
Gordon, Yours is a strange interpretation of law abiding and law-breaking. It is not OK to break laws because others break laws. It is interesting that you condemn those who break laws when that constitutes most of humanity. I simply was observing that when you pretend to be a christ-figure and insult others as inferior because only you obey the laws, this is very peculiar and unproductive. I also am an old-timer, and my observation is that our generation and those before and since are chronic law-breakers and it is far more productive to ask why than to condemn.
Many of us think there is a more fundamental ethic above the law. To make our civilization work I must not hurt other people or steal/destroy their property. The automobile driving laws should always come back to that. "Come to a complete stop at a stop sign" really means do not endanger any lives or property. If I come to an open stop sign at 3 AM and there is blatantly no car within miles, I will probably not worry about the complete stop. Someone calls that criminal behavior and I call it being smart, and using one's brain.
I found two species of undescribed beetle last summer. I needed to post those to the authority in Germany so he could describe them and publish. At the post office I must declare if my package contains flammable liquid. Indeed it has < 1 cc of absolute ethanol. The reason for declaring is to prevent harm to anyone's life or property. The package with its tiny bit of alcohol presents no harm. "To declare or not to declare", that is the question. The people at the post office may not have a Ph.D. in chemistry and have published papers in the area of combustion as I have. Will they understand? Which approach will be most likely to get my precious specimens to Germany? All went well but the inspector at the German post office wanted the recipient to assure him that these specimens in alcohol were not an agricultural pest that could devastate Germany. The specimens got through.
I say only a fool obeys the laws mindlessly. Do what is moral and ethical, using your good brain. Follow the law if it makes sense. Rick
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Post by wingedwishes on Jul 5, 2016 14:00:07 GMT -8
Responsible behavior would result n responsible rules - so yeah we should be at the forefront promoting responsible behavior. To further my example:
What if the driver packaged the butterflies in newspaper that were hit by his car in order to be nice and bury them but was then arrested at the border? Was the driver irresponsible?
Americans tend to rebel against irresponsible rules. I am not a rebel and try very hard to follow the rules. When the rules are bad (determine what "bad" means for yourself) though, I will possibly support those who rebel against them. In the insect world, I will go with the educated majority on beneficialness of a rule rather than the ignorant (or worse - self serving) governments. Your shame may be perceived as delusional by others but shame is a perception built on social mores, not on justice.
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rjb
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Post by rjb on Jul 5, 2016 14:19:55 GMT -8
Last night there were phenomenal numbers of illegal fireworks all over Albuquerque. The police cited something like 20 offenders out of 800 complaints. This morning at the museum, while having coffee, we discussed this. The consensus seemed to be that it was un-American for the city to make firecrackers illegal. The city was irresponsible for passing this law. A nation of law-breakers for sure.
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