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Post by exoticimports on Feb 14, 2019 7:33:16 GMT -8
As I have well documented here in another thread, Ornithoptera from Solomon Islands was banned in trade as a result of a bureaucratic pissing contest between CITES and Solomon Islands National Resources. As a signatory to CITES, US law (frighteningly) adopts as US law any rulings by CITES. As a result of this, it was published in Federal Register that import of Ornithoptera from Solomons was illegal. You can search for the document, it is available online. Solomon Islands became a signatory to CITES years ago. The ban on Ornithoptera should have been lifted. However, nobody at CITES bothered to follow through with the correction, nor did anyone at USFWS nor any US legislators. So it stands, simply because of laziness. If you want to be a hero, write your legislator and ask them to remove the restriction. This should be a no-brainer for the politicians since nobody is going to fight it. When passed as law you can then import SolIs Ornithoptera legally. If you want O. victoriae today, here you go, great price, two different available: www.thebutterflycompany.com/product-category/collector-roomChuck |
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 14, 2019 9:14:25 GMT -8
If you want O. victoriae today, here you go, great price, two different available: www.thebutterflycompany.com/product-category/collector-room
Thanks for the link. I've purchased from that company before (back when it was called Butterflies and Things). Those male victoriae specimens are nice, but I'd prefer to get a pair, if possible.
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 14, 2019 21:46:32 GMT -8
Thanks again to everyone for your comments and advice on Birdwing butterflies - very informative. I feel like I have a much better understanding of the current regulations surrounding them now. As I am in the US and have no plans to obtain any specimens of such from international sources, the main question that I wanted to confirm is whether Ornithoptera, Triodes & Trogonoptera species can be freely sold and purchased WITHIN the US (with O. alexandrae being the sole exception of course, as uniquely, it is listed under CITES I rather than CITES II). I wanted to make quite certain that this is indeed totally legal before making any transactions, and your input on this matter has been very helpful. Incidentally, I have just ordered Hirotaka Matsuka's book "Natural History of Birdwing Butterflies", which was recommended as a highly comprehensive work on the subject, and I much look forward to reading. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 15, 2019 1:38:25 GMT -8
Matsuka's book really is excellent, you will enjoy reading it for sure and seeing all the photos.
Adam.
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 15, 2019 15:06:03 GMT -8
As I have well documented here in another thread, Ornithoptera from Solomon Islands was banned in trade as a result of a bureaucratic pissing contest between CITES and Solomon Islands National Resources.
As a signatory to CITES, US law (frighteningly) adopts as US law any rulings by CITES. As a result of this, it was published in Federal Register that import of Ornithoptera from Solomons was illegal. You can search for the document, it is available online.
Solomon Islands became a signatory to CITES years ago. The ban on Ornithoptera should have been lifted. However, nobody at CITES bothered to follow through with the correction, nor did anyone at USFWS nor any US legislators. So it stands, simply because of laziness.
..
There are plenty of O. priamus urvillianus from the Solomons listed on eBay right now, many of which are from this dealer. Are those legal? I know that this subspecies is also found in Papua, but many of the listings state "Solomon Islands" as the specimens' place of origin.
A thought: What if by Solomons, they are actually referring to Bougainville Island (where urvillianus also occurs)? Geographically, Bougainville is part of the Solomons, but politically, it's part of Papua.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 16, 2019 0:25:11 GMT -8
They are legal IF the seller has a CITES export permit from the country that he bought them from (doubtful). If someone in another country buys them from him on eBay they would only be legal if he provides a Russian CITES export permit for the specimens. He may be able to provide Russian CITES permits, possibly at extra cost, but I suspect that he may not.
Adam.
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 16, 2019 9:14:59 GMT -8
They are legal IF the seller has a CITES export permit from the country that he bought them from (doubtful). If someone in another country buys them from him on eBay they would only be legal if he provides a Russian CITES export permit for the specimens. He may be able to provide Russian CITES permits, possibly at extra cost, but I suspect that he may not. Adam. I see. In any case, I'd rather just avoid any possible CITES technicalities whatsoever, and will therefore only buy specimens from sellers within the US, as I'm not willing to risk having any legal issues arise from importing. As others have advised me, purchasing from domestic sources is the least complicated route of building a collection of Ornithoptera. I'm by no means seeking to assemble a diverse collection, anyway - just single pairs of a number of species / subspecies, and mostly the more common and affordable ones. My real question, is whether it would be legal to purchase (from domestic sellers) specimens that originated from the Solomons (regardless of whether they were imported prior to, or after, the Solomons import ban)? In other words, in such a scenario, could the buyer be held legally responsible in any way, or is it only the seller that took a risk, since they were the importer? What if the seller didn't import the specimens directly from the Solomons, but instead got them from another dealer (e.g. - in Europe or Asia)? Apologies for all of the technical questions I've posed in this thread, but I need any transactions I make to be legally "bulletproof". |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 10:09:24 GMT -8
It’s the importer/seller who has to face the regulation issues. Buying from within is perfectly ok, but I’d still keep receipts just in case. The worse thing that could happen is your specimens might (and I doubt it would likely happen) be confiscated wo penalty to you. It’s the importers into the US they r being a pain to. It’s not your fault if what u buy had been wrongfully brought into the US. Buy away from within the US.  |
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 16, 2019 10:35:38 GMT -8
It’s the importer/seller who has to face the regulation issues. Buying from within is perfectly ok, but I’d still keep receipts just in case. The worse thing that could happen is your specimens might (and I doubt it would likely happen) be confiscated wo penalty to you. It’s the importers into the US they r being a pain to. It’s not your fault if what u buy had been wrongfully brought into the US. Buy away from within the US. At what point would could a confiscation take place, since the specimens wouldn't be going through customs in the case of domestic shipping? Again - I should clarify that I'm not seeking to purchase anything prohibited by somehow finding a legal workaround. I just want to make certain that for any CITES II material that I do happen to buy from a US seller, that might "possibly" have been brought into the country wrongfully, I can't be held legally liable for in any way whatsoever. I've seen some Solomon Islands specimens available on-line that, while probably (hopefully) imported legally, seem a bit vague on that aspect. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 12:44:05 GMT -8
I know of several cases years ago where the goons raided (usually after an importation violation) properties. It’s not likely to ever happen to a non importer, but it can. If they even suspect one has done wrong, they’ll serve a search warrant and proceed from there. Always plan for the worst. Btw......giving them your records is not a good idea as when they “lose” your proof, you are up a creek wo a paddle. If I ever get visited, I’ll inform them that my lawyer will bring the proof directly to the court. None of this lost it crap. Don’t worry, but be prepared.....that’s all. I still have my paperwork from importing years ago....just to be safe. Sorry situation we law abiding citizen collectors find ourselves in  |
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 16, 2019 13:35:03 GMT -8
I know of several cases years ago where the goons raided (usually after an importation violation) properties. It’s not likely to ever happen to a non importer, but it can. If they even suspect one has done wrong, they’ll serve a search warrant and proceed from there. Always plan for the worst. Btw......giving them your records is not a good idea as when they “lose” your proof, you are up a creek wo a paddle. If I ever get visited, I’ll inform them that my lawyer will bring the proof directly to the court. None of this lost it crap. Don’t worry, but be prepared.....that’s all. I still have my paperwork from importing years ago....just to be safe. Sorry situation we law abiding citizen collectors find ourselves in Well, now you've got me wondering if I even want to bother with buying any CITES-listed species at all! If there's any potential for legal issues whatsoever (even when buying from a domestic seller), it's just not worth it to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 14:27:20 GMT -8
Sorry.....I did not wish to scare you off. I really think that buying from within the US should be fine.
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 16, 2019 14:47:19 GMT -8
Sorry.....I did not wish to scare you off. I really think that buying from within the US should be fine. Considering the sheer number of common Birdwing butterflies that are now being farmed and exported every year, and their easy availability (not only for collectors, but also for use in decorative "art" types of items), I find it hard to believe that any legal issues ever come up regarding them (at least, when the seller and buyer are both in the same country). If issues were a regular occurrence, we'd surely hear about it more. |
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Post by exoticimports on Feb 22, 2019 18:20:30 GMT -8
I know of several cases years ago where the goons raided (usually after an importation violation) properties. It’s not likely to ever happen to a non importer, but it can. If they even suspect one has done wrong, they’ll serve a search warrant and proceed from there. Always plan for the worst. Btw......giving them your records is not a good idea as when they “lose” your proof, you are up a creek wo a paddle. If I ever get visited, I’ll inform them that my lawyer will bring the proof directly to the court. None of this lost it crap. Don’t worry, but be prepared.....that’s all. I still have my paperwork from importing years ago....just to be safe. Sorry situation we law abiding citizen collectors find ourselves in Well, now you've got me wondering if I even want to bother with buying any CITES-listed species at all! If there's any potential for legal issues whatsoever (even when buying from a domestic seller), it's just not worth it to me. Don’t get all dramatic about it. Just buy from US sellers. |
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 23, 2019 11:18:41 GMT -8
Well, now you've got me wondering if I even want to bother with buying any CITES-listed species at all! If there's any potential for legal issues whatsoever (even when buying from a domestic seller), it's just not worth it to me. Don’t get all dramatic about it. Just buy from US sellers. Actually, I've realized that what I'd really like to focus on is not so much butterfly collecting, but butterfly gardening. I think I'd get a lot more out of seeing live butterflies than preserved ones (not that there's anything wrong with collecting, of course). I might even work at rearing some of my local swallowtail species - it's something I did to a limited extent when I was younger, and feel it would be a project worth re-visiting. Papilio polyxenes is common here, and and it's very easy to get caterpillars from them if parsley, dill or fennel is planted. I would also like to try rearing Papilio glaucus. |
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