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Post by exoticimports on Sept 13, 2020 16:00:30 GMT -8
So lemme get this straight.
In the 70s and 80s we had a TS that flew early summer. It’s not canadensis since that species stays north of MTA. I’ll go so far as to say it’s not glaucus because the females are yellow. So it is....?
Then a decade or so the Mystery Tiger Swallowtail starts flying in later summer. It’s neither canadensis nor glaucus. So it’s something new.
Meanwhile glaucus has pushed up to southern PA following MTS exit. Except they interbreed, thus the mixed females.
So south of Lake Ontario we have two tigers, both neither canadensis nor glaucus.
This is like being confused on how to drive a Honda Accord.
Chuck
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Post by Paul K on Sept 13, 2020 16:14:05 GMT -8
It looks like I took photo of Midsummer tiger (mystery tiger) on 3 July at 40º03'32.3"N 79º19'19.1"W. ( aprox. 10km east of Newmarket, Ontario ) Until now I was sure these are P.glaucus as they are large size and were spotted in July. after examine a photo they are looking more like P.canadensis but of the size of glaucus. It is a pity I did not collect them thought they were P.glaucus.
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Post by eurytides on Sept 13, 2020 16:40:03 GMT -8
So lemme get this straight. In the 70s and 80s we had a TS that flew early summer. It’s not canadensis since that species stays north of MTA. I’ll go so far as to say it’s not glaucus because the females are yellow. So it is....? Then a decade or so the Mystery Tiger Swallowtail starts flying in later summer. It’s neither canadensis nor glaucus. So it’s something new. Meanwhile glaucus has pushed up to southern PA following MTS exit. Except they interbreed, thus the mixed females. So south of Lake Ontario we have two tigers, both neither canadensis nor glaucus. This is like being confused on how to drive a Honda Accord. Chuck Sorry, not sure what “MTA” means? Also, you will have to be more specific. What exact does “early summer” mean? I would say canadensis flies early summer. Also, just because there are no black females doesn’t mean it’s not glaucus. The more north you go, the less the proportion of melanic females because the pipevine swallowtails become scarcer. There are populations of glaucus in southern Ontario that don’t have any black females, but are bivoltine and feed on tuliptree. Interesting theory about the semi melanic females being hybrids. I can’t say either way since I’m not sure how the genetics work here. I always thought melanism was a single gene trait? Bottom line is, we need more molecular work, rearing data, etc.
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Post by eurytides on Sept 13, 2020 16:42:03 GMT -8
Paul, those are probably MST. That early in July, there wouldn’t have been enough time for a second generation of glaucus to eclose yet.
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Post by 58chevy on Sept 13, 2020 17:17:45 GMT -8
Thanks for the info, Chuck. Looks like I'll have to wait until next year.
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Post by Paul K on Sept 13, 2020 17:28:10 GMT -8
I don't have many specimens of tigers in my collection, but I just checked them and I found out that I do have MST specimens. Two collected in Kleinburg Ontario ( 10km north of Toronto ) on Jun 1. Interestingly I also have P.glaucus from exact same location collected on Jul 10 and it is definitely P.glaucus so it is possible to have early second generation. I just want to add that all specimens are fresh. the pattern of Midsummer tiger is closely resemble P.canadensis but they are the size of glaucus. I only have one specimen of P.canadensis collected in Kaldar ON on May 25 and one specimen collected in Rocky mountains in Alberta on Jun 25. The pattern of the later is much different than Ontario specimen, I wouldn't be surprised if those two are different subspecies. Anyway I will be researching my area next summer to find out more.
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Post by eurytides on Sept 13, 2020 17:45:37 GMT -8
The June 1 specimen is probably canadensis. MTS doesn’t fly that early. Your specimen from July 10 is probably MST. If you think that’s a second generation glaucus, then you have to ask when was that egg laid? Would have to be early May. So unless that was a very warm year, that’s unlikely. MST looks more like glaucus than canadensis.
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Post by eurytides on Sept 13, 2020 17:51:24 GMT -8
Also Paul, canadensis has a huge range so there will be some variation in traits, but it doesn’t necessarily mean subspecies. For example, you can have small and darker specimens from Yukon which used to be form “arcticus” but this is not a subspecies.
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 13, 2020 17:54:19 GMT -8
"MTA" is "Metropolitan Toronto Area", used in one of the articles.
It's good to see the Tigers being studied in Canada; are there any similar efforts on the south side of the border? I suspect that much can be learned by a study of the historically collected specimens on the south side of the border.
Here's where I get confused. We had Tigers in May/ June. Of some species. Then we got Tigers in July/August. If Paul caught MST on 01 June, then what's flying in August? If what's traditionally, and currently(?), flying here on 01 June is also MST, then what's flying in August? It isn't glaucus.
Apparently I have some examinations to conduct here.
In the mean time, perhaps we can plan for 2021 field research in USA to support the Canadian studies. After all, we have ten months. Ten. Long. Months.
Chuck
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Post by Paul K on Sept 13, 2020 17:55:44 GMT -8
The June 1 specimen is probably canadensis. MTS doesn’t fly that early. Your specimen from July 10 is probably MST. If you think that’s a second generation glaucus, then you have to ask when was that egg laid? Would have to be early May. So unless that was a very warm year, that’s unlikely. MST looks more like glaucus than canadensis. Is it possible that the canadensis is large, size of the glaucus? If so then yes they must be it. I also have two females collected on Jul 10 and 15 from North of Hamilton. They look like glaucus, do you think they also might be MST?
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Post by eurytides on Sept 13, 2020 18:21:35 GMT -8
"MTA" is "Metropolitan Toronto Area", used in one of the articles. It's good to see the Tigers being studied in Canada; are there any similar efforts on the south side of the border? I suspect that much can be learned by a study of the historically collected specimens on the south side of the border. Here's where I get confused. We had Tigers in May/ June. Of some species. Then we got Tigers in July/August. If Paul caught MST on 01 June, then what's flying in August? If what's traditionally, and currently(?), flying here on 01 June is also MST, then what's flying in August? It isn't glaucus. Apparently I have some examinations to conduct here. In the mean time, perhaps we can plan for 2021 field research in USA to support the Canadian studies. After all, we have ten months. Ten. Long. Months. Chuck Hey Chuck, I suspect what Paul caught on June 1 is canadensis. Pictures would be helpful. I’m not sure what occurs in your region but I remember reading once that the microclimate north vs south of the lake can be quite different. If all 3 types of TS occur in your area, you may have to do some rearing to get to the bottom of things. The 3 types have flight times that overlap. Canadensis (univoltine) and glaucus (bivoltine in the north) emerge first but canadensis is slower to develop. When the second generation glaucus is out, canadensis are just getting to the end of the larval stage. Canadensis hibernates while glaucus has time for a second generation. MST is also univoltine and takes longer to break diapause. It flies 2-3 weeks after canadensis/first generation glaucus.
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Post by eurytides on Sept 13, 2020 18:25:15 GMT -8
Paul, how big is your specimen from June 1? Picture?
July 10/15 is likely MST. Too late for canadensis and too early for second generation glaucus.
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Post by Paul K on Sept 13, 2020 18:51:19 GMT -8
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Post by eurytides on Sept 13, 2020 19:19:45 GMT -8
Nice specimens. June 1 looks like glaucus. It would be at the northern part of its range. The July specimens, to be honest, I can’t be 100% sure. They look like glaucus but from the dates they really shouldn’t be. My glaucus from Hamilton are from July 31 and August 1. I have collected eggs and young larvae from mid June and they don’t have enough time to become adults by July 10-15.
Also, what does the “+10” in 1991(+10) mean?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 14, 2020 1:50:06 GMT -8
Also, what does the “+10” in 1991(+10) mean? I suspect that's a little code for the year, bearing in mind local issues Adam.
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