|
Post by 58chevy on Dec 14, 2021 16:46:22 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by kevinkk on Dec 14, 2021 17:22:01 GMT -8
interesting. This kinds of remind me of a post some time back from a teacher that wondered what we thought about using AI and digital models to teach students. If you recall, I think the teacher may have went in a different direction after a few responses. I just don't see how it follows scientific method, maybe it would work for some instances, and maybe someday it'll be a standard.
|
|
|
Post by vabrou on Dec 14, 2021 18:32:21 GMT -8
You can't fix STUPID. We already have a gigantic number of bad species descriptions among our insect fauna literature, this only throws out the established rules by fools who know little about insect taxonomy. These clowns want to rewrite the rules because they say so, based upon unproven, unsubstantiated foolishness. I have gone behind some of the biggest names in past lepidoptera entomological history and described new valid species from species long known in scientific literature, but unrecognized by past 'experts'. Some examples are: 1 Eumorpha intermedia Clark 1980. Jour. Lepid. Soc., New Status -- 'Sphingidae' 2 Eumorpha satellitia rosea Brou (1980 ). (in Hawkmoths of the World. 2000. Kitching, I.J. & JM.Cadiou) -- 'Sphingidae' 3 Automeris louisiana Ferguson and Brou 1981 Jour. Lepid Soc. – 'Saturnidae' 4 Manduca wellingi Brou 1984 Jour. Lepid. Soc. -- 'Sphingidae' 5 Catocala atocala Brou 1985 Proc. Entomol Soc. Wash. -- 'Noctuidae' 6 Catocala charlottae Brou 1988. Jour. Lepid. Soc. -- 'Noctuidae' 7 Lapara phaeobrachycerous Brou 1994 Jour. Lepid. Soc. 48:51-57. -- 'Sphingidae' 8 Chaetaglaea fergusoni Brou 1997 Jour. Lepid. Soc. -- 'Noctuidae' 9 Catocala umbrosa Brou 2002 South. Lepid. News 24: 48-50. -- 'Noctuidae' 10 Baileya acadiana Brou 2004 Jour. Lepid. Soc. 58(2) 94-99. -- 'Nolidae' 11 Baileya ellessyoo Brou 2004 Jour. Lepid. Soc. 58(2) 94-99. -- 'Nolidae' 12 Lithophane abita Brou and Lafontaine 2009. Zoo Keys 10: 11-20. 'Noctuidae' 13 Eudocima lequeuxi Brou & Zilli 2016. Zootaxa 4109 (3) 391-399. Erebidae 14 Eudocima oliveri Zilli & Brou 2017 'In: Telnov D. (ed.), Biodiv., Biogeo., and Nat. Cons. Wallacea and New Guinea, 3: 631-655, pls 152-166. - 'Erebidae 15 Eudocima martini Zilli & Brou 2017 'In: Telnov D. (ed.), Biodiv., Biogeo., and Nat. Cons. Wallacea and New Guinea, 3: 631-655, pls 152-166. - 'Erebidae 16 Eudocima steppingstonia Brou, Klem, Zaspel & Zilli 2017 'In: In: Telnov D. (ed.), Biodiv., Biogeo., and Nat. Cons. Wallacea and New Guinea, 3: 631-655, pls 152-166. - 'Erebidae
Not one of these were described using only a photograph. But e.g. Eudocima phalonia (Linnaeus, 1763) was described 258 years ago, and in 2016 and 2017 Brou & Zilli described four new species all of which were in the past considered E. phalonia, and all were addressed many times and not recognized by dozens of experts of the past and current centuries.
I could list 500+ examples of species with major taxonomical problems here in North America alone. One, for example, I am currently working on a manuscript describing two new clearwing moths from Louisiana. Both of these undescribed species were misidentified numerous times by Tom Eichlin and D. Duckworth as being Synanthedon arkandsasensis Duckworth & Eichlin, 1973.
When I looked at the original TYPE series designated by Duckworth and Eichlin in the US National Museum, I discovered these authors included five different Synanthedon species, all as being S. arkansasensis back in 1973. Then looking at museum and university material throughout the eastern US over the past several years, I discovered many more misidentified specimens which Eichlin placed his determination labels on as being S. arkansasensis. In fact, so far I have discovered that these authors have misidentified 13 different species of clearwing moths all as being S. arkansasensis. The more I look, the more misidentifications I find. These authors have written the MONA Fascicle on clearwing moths for N.A. and other major clearwing moth tomes from continents throughout the world. I must mention that we have discovered about 25 new undescribed species of clearwing moths in Louisiana over the past half century. And good quality spread adults of a dozen of those newly discovered species were sent by me in series to Eichlin in the 80s-90s, and all (everyone of those) were misidentified by him as well.
Now I ask, if the so-called world renown experts can't taxonomically identify species using hundreds of specimens they are holding in their hands, what chance do these these fools have wanting to describe species using only images. Put me down twice as a BIG FAT NOooooooo....... to describing species using only images.
Vernon Antoine Brou Jr.
|
|
|
Post by trehopr1 on Dec 14, 2021 21:27:12 GMT -8
Perhaps, it could be said that some taxonomists (of the past) were more-so of the "lumper" mindset rather than that of the "splitter" manner of thinking.
Also, science has progressed in leaps and bounds since the 1950s. Some of the "tools" which are used in looking at things in fine detail were simply not available to others long ago. In just these last 30 years scientists now peer through better stereo microscopes, advanced scanning electron microscopes, and of course DNA/genetic barcodes; all of which was largely absent prior to the mid-1980s.
It is easy to be critical of others when you have the benefit of history to look back upon; a history which they did not have since they WERE making history.
I do not deny that there have probably been a few "shabby" researchers (through time) but, as a whole I believe most dedicated scientists want to leave behind a body of work that others will learn from and build upon.
|
|
|
Post by vabrou on Dec 15, 2021 7:05:54 GMT -8
trehopr1 We published in 2 parts (1997 and 2002), a 30 consecutive year study of the Sphingidae of Louisiana, which also resulted in the discovery of two new sphingid species, Lapara phaeobrachycerous Brou, and a second Lapara species yet to be described, both occurring here at our home location. This monumental investigation involved the Sphingidae of Louisiana, covered the years (1970-1999) in which we reported capturing 83,889 adult wild Sphingidae specimens representing 46 species within the state of Louisiana.
When I was working on that manuscript, I obtained every major publication on hawkmnoths going back to the Civil War era. I spent decades of time, and bags of dimes and quarters making xerox copies at numerous university libraries of every publication I could find on Sphingidae. For decades I looked for a copy of 'Rothschild, W. & K. Jordan 1903 . A revision of the lepidopterous family Sphingidae. Novit. Zoo!., ix suppl. cxxxv + 972 pp.' And one copy of this huge (4 1/2" thick, 1116+ pages) book eventually appeared for sale and I scooped that prize up instantly. So I have a rather extensive reference library (publications and reprints) on hawkmoths of the world. I mention this because what I discovered was that some statements found in the 1800s publications were repeatedly parroted by each subsequent author for more than a century, over and over and over to present day, restating what the first author published. Not one of these authors provided proofs of their declarations. Some of the statements even in the first published MONA fascicle on NA Sphingidae (1970), are absurd and simply unsubstantiated drivel and anecdotal conjecture, stated as fact, from statements appearing exactly as made in the 1800s.
The present-day taxonomical situation is less about lack of earlier technology, and more about the unfounded misguided assumptions and belief that having a bunch of acronyms behind ones names has some magical connotation as being an 'EXPERT'. What is true about any publication is that if one actually looks closely at the statements within, one realizes that these technical documents are mostly unsubstantiated opinions, and as I often remark 'BULL###'. Anyone reading these can discover these minor and major foibles; all one has to do is investigate for yourself. Never accept any opinion or publication as undisputed fact, even when you are supplied with glowing reviews from the 'good old boy network of the authors friends', or even a letter of authenticity signed by GOD.
What occurs with many large works on entomological subjects is that authors are often not experts on the subjects of their writings at all, but are experts at plagiarism, and since the advent of the internet, this type of problem has skyrocketed, especially with university professors and PhDs. Start collecting a reference library, actually read what all these past and present day authors say, and you too will realize the real state of affairs of our scientific literature. The reason this 'FAKE NEWS" proliferates with learned professionals is that university and college employees are required (forced) to publish (something or anything) in order to keep their jobs. And indeed they do !!
As one would surmise, graduate students who publish do so in order to graduate. They often have no actual personal meaningful experiences or accomplishments to base their publications on, so these publications will have the greatest amount of misinformation, plagiarism and nonsense. But, they often wind up being part of the official record. Some graduate thesis unfortunately go on to publication in hardbound status. I have several of these in paperback and hardback, and they live up to my expectations of 'grand foolishness'.
Lets not assume that DNA is the 'be all-end all' to taxonomical quandaries. It is not, but the new crop of researchers (newbies) out there mistakenly believe it is. The fact is, that it is just another tool in the lab. When genitalic dissections came into favor in the late 1800, they too were thought to be the answer to all taxonomical questions, and today we all realize they too are just one of a number of useful tools, but not always a useful and convincing one.
Call me skeptical, I consider that an honor. Once, I was dubbed 'an old curmudgeon' by my entomological peers after I published a book review concerning a genus of moths.
|
|
|
Post by nomihoudai on Dec 15, 2021 7:41:19 GMT -8
There has been more cases of insect species described without physical type (for example: Marleyimyia xylocopae Marshall & Evenhuis, 2015 or Semachrysa jade Winterton, Guek & Brooks, 2012). I welcome the change. After all a species is a construction and communicated by observing a set of characters that a set of specimen share. In the easiest case, you have a pair of species and all you need to tell somebody is the rule that differentiates both. Taxonomy would have become much clearer when it had focused more on the description texts than the physical specimen found in nature,... but then we would never had enough appeal for people to go out into the world and come back with reference material, still necessary to observe and efficiently describe everything. You will always have pros and cons for both viewpoints. A big con of reference collections is that type material won't really be complete or even depict that "simplest rule" that would make everything easier. Let me explain. In Europe we have the species Pieris rapae (Linnaeus, 1758) and Pieris mannii (Mayer, 1851) that are quite confusing, unless you can see the L1 larvae. The L1 of P. rapae have a green/yellow head capsule, those of P. mannii have a black head capsule in L1. I doubt that the type series includes some L1 in vials .
|
|
|
|
Post by exoticimports on Dec 19, 2021 8:03:52 GMT -8
No matter opinions, the fact is that it IS going to happen, like it or not.
Heppner wrote an opinion piece some years ago that new descriptions should be limited to "real" publications, and not online pubs. Of course, by that time the handwriting was on the wall (as we say, meaning inevitable) and he was ignored. Just like when Kodak (which invented the digital camera) elected to stay with film- it was pretty obvious the the technology had changed, and no matter how hard the change was fought, it was going to change how we act and interact.
Using photos, of course, is wrought with risk. Color morphs, bad photos, and intentionally manipulated photos. The latter would indicate that not only a subject species be described, but that the photos be subject to expert analysis for manipulation. Too, there is no opportunity for MtDNA analysis, which has matured and is revealing amazing relationships- and lack thereof. "Synonym" seems to be often written in recent papers.
That said, taboos against collecting, and against amateurs, prevents both discover and physical study. In the future, scientists will be relegated to using only photos.
Too, as remote communities gain access to technology such as cell phone cameras, images of unknown taxa will increase. I have one lizard photo on iNaturalist that hasn't been identified, and other unpublished images of reptiles and amphibians from unexplored regions that may well reveal a new sp or ssp.
So the pros and cons all have merit. None will change the adoption of photos for new descriptions.
Chuck
Chuck
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 20, 2021 1:11:27 GMT -8
I seem to remember that a few years ago there was a new primate named using photos to illustrate the holotype, I think from somewhere in Africa. Blood samples were taken from the holotype before it was released, so DNA sequencing was also included in this case.
Adam.
|
|
|
Post by exoticimports on Dec 20, 2021 5:05:27 GMT -8
I seem to remember that a few years ago there was a new primate named using photos to illustrate the holotype, I think from somewhere in Africa. Blood samples were taken from the holotype before it was released, so DNA sequencing was also included in this case. Adam. Maybe not the same case, but the article cites the description of a new monkey " Presbytis johnaspinalli Nardelli, 2015, a new monkey species in the subfamily Colobinae, described from pictures of caged animals found on the Internet (Nardelli 2015)" for which there was no DNA, and it was based solely on photos. Notably, it is still in question, as some believe the monkey was colorized by locals, so that's a good example of a possible failure of using photos only. Arguably, it's no worse than the plethora of "newly described" Leps that are nothing but morphs and localized races. I spent some time last week trying to ID a Euploea, banging my head, till I realized the series I have is probably just a local form with extra spots. Can I "describe" it from photos only? I suppose, morphologically it's unique, but I suspect that a DNA test will reveal it's not even a new ssp. Chuck
|
|