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Post by mothman55 on Feb 27, 2022 7:47:40 GMT -8
This catocala is likely not an aberrant, but just a difficult one to ID. Maybe Vernon can help with this one.
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Post by mothman55 on Feb 27, 2022 7:48:31 GMT -8
Underside.
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Post by vabrou on Feb 27, 2022 9:53:03 GMT -8
Harrisimemna trisignata (Walker) in Louisiana. Among the 1,041 wild-captured adults were these two aberrants.
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Post by mothman55 on Feb 27, 2022 11:05:12 GMT -8
Vernon, do you have any thoughts on what species this worn specimen may be? I have a coccinata that has very similar forewings, and amatrix with some yellow on the hindwing mixing in with the pink. But I am really at a loss, appreciate your opinion.
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Post by mothman55 on Feb 27, 2022 11:07:46 GMT -8
Or anyone else that has an opinion on this catocala, please give your thoughts.
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Post by vabrou on Feb 27, 2022 11:45:33 GMT -8
mothman55 I have long ago learned to not venture into unknown territory. No, I have no clue regarding your specimen. Honestly, I am not a Catocala expert despite personally collecting more of them than anyone on this continent. I only claim to know about things I have personally investigated, and I too have made errors in the past. Most of my few published errors occurred because I relied upon the so-call experts with numerous acronyms behind their names to base my decisions upon.
You provided no data, method of capture, not even a continent or country of origin, nor a date which sometimes can help. You probably have a series of better quality specimens of this very same species in your possession. Looking at a one of a kind damaged/questionable specimens is not anything I would put money on. I have captured surely >200,000 adult Catocala here at my home location over the past half century, and I too still have a handful of Catocala specimens from here I cannot put a legitimate Scientific name upon. I have several Louisiana Catocala that are aberrants, some of which look nothing like the actual species.
I tell fellow lepidopterists that I personally discovered over 400 species of just moths new to science, and yet that isn't exactly true, as I stopped counting new species I discovered right here at my home about 15 years ago. I am aware of at least three species of US hawkmoths that are currently undescribed, including one of the two new hawkmoths I discovered right here from my home location.
Here is a well known small Catocala species that has been known for 60 years or more from the SE USA, and yet it remains undescribed still today. I have currently about 5,000 pinned, spread, and labeled adults of this undescribed species, mostly captured here at my home. I have sent more than an additional 1,000 of them to researchers across the word.
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Post by mothman55 on Feb 27, 2022 15:33:04 GMT -8
Good point, collecting data is as follows:
collected at bait in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada (just west of Toronto) on August 9, 1985. It was actually flying around the previous night bait as I applied fresh bait at dusk. I understand reluctance to attempt to identify it as its not as exact science. Was just hoping someone had collected something similar that could help me come up with a potential ID. I think possibly amatrix or coccinata, but just a guess.
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Post by billgarthe on Feb 27, 2022 17:24:16 GMT -8
Imho, this is indeed C. coccinata based largely on the basal dash and the verso is not amatrix-like as the verso FWs are strong w red whole amatrix verso FWs are largely red-free. This is my best guess. What is the wingspan measurement? Amatrix tend to be larger than coccinata and the HWs are strong pink while coccinata HWs tend to be redder. The FWs of coccinata are more pointed at apex than are amatrix. Going to Bill O.’s website on NA Catocalas Index would be suggested. Others may disagree which is fine. Just realize I’m merely trying to help someone w an ID and I don’t profess to always be right.
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Post by Paul K on Feb 27, 2022 19:52:30 GMT -8
Papilio memnon agenor - female aberrant collected in Eastern Thailand, Mukdahan
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 28, 2022 0:21:47 GMT -8
Wow, this specimen is almost unique, not in the unusual wing pattern but because it has a black abdomen. The tailed female form of agenor always has a yellow abdomen with a black dorsal stripe. I think there are two other known specimens of this form with a black abdomen.
Adam.
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Post by bobw on Feb 28, 2022 1:18:24 GMT -8
Imho, this is indeed C. coccinata based largely on the basal dash and the verso is not amatrix-like as the verso FWs are strong w red whole amatrix verso FWs are largely red-free. This is my best guess. What is the wingspan measurement? Amatrix tend to be larger than coccinata and the HWs are strong pink while coccinata HWs tend to be redder. The FWs of coccinata are more pointed at apex than are amatrix. Going to Bill O.’s website on NA Catocalas Index would be suggested. Others may disagree which is fine. Just realize I’m merely trying to help someone w an ID and I don’t profess to always be right. I agree with Bill, coccinata is probably the only species in Ontario with so much red on the forewing underside.
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Post by mothman55 on Feb 28, 2022 6:40:15 GMT -8
Thanks Bill and Bob for your input. I tend to agree with coccinata. Here are comparisons of the underside, top is amatrix, middle is the unknown, bottom is coccinata. From a size perspective, the unknown is mid between, at 68mm its larger than my average for coccinate here at 60mm, while its smaller than amatrix which ranges from 70mm - 85mm here. One other issue that pretty much eliminates amatrix is the date of capture. Amatrix here is a late August into September species, and a worn specimen from August 9 would be a July emergence, similar to coccinata. The real difference in the unknown from typical coccinata is all the yellow/orange. I have seen and have specimens of amatrix that have a bit of this yellow/orange on the hind wing, but have not seen this in coccinata. Could it be a hybrid between coccinata and one of the yellow/orange species, or just a very unusual coloured coccinata, I think the latter.
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Post by mothman55 on Feb 28, 2022 6:41:42 GMT -8
Upperside
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Post by bobw on Feb 28, 2022 7:46:50 GMT -8
The yellow/orange colour could just be the result of it being a very old faded specimen.
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Post by billgarthe on Feb 28, 2022 7:57:38 GMT -8
Thnx for your measurements. While measurement is but one factor, I have several coccinatas the same size as your special one. None of my two drawers of amatrix has a specimen smaller than 70mms. Regarding your color issue, I think it’s not a hybrid w one of the orange ones. Instead it’s largely due to wear. Now……many years ago, I caught a cara and forgot abt it and it spent three days in the EA jar. When I mounted it, it lost much of the intense pink and became organgier than pink. I have not experimented further on this issue as I’ve not since forgotten a moth in a jar for three days like then. I’m just saying this ‘could’ be a possibility. In my drawer of coccinatas, the few more worn ones did remain largely pink, but lighter/faded and not orangier. Based on size, wing shape, coloration, wing patterning, both recto and verso comparisons, and date of capture, I would, in fact, label it as C. coccinata. Just to share issues of IDing frustration, this pic shows my oddball ‘coccinata’ at bottom. It appears melanic w the FWs, but with matching patterning/field marks to the regular coccinata on top. With close examination, most all of the FW patterns from the top specimen are present in the darkened FWs of the bottom specimen. The HWs, however, perplex me in that the inner black bar/band is so reduced……a more junctura-like look….the hook appearance as opposed to the full black inner band of the regular coccinata. I did include this one in the coccinata drawer, but marked it as questionable and it’s set off a bit from the main bunch.
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