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Post by davemoore on May 25, 2011 2:10:05 GMT -8
All collected in NW Greece, not far inland from Parga. Any help appreciated.
Thanks Dave
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Post by davemoore on May 25, 2011 2:12:02 GMT -8
Another one, same data
Thanks
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Post by davemoore on May 25, 2011 2:12:42 GMT -8
And the last
Many thanks
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Post by thanos on May 25, 2011 6:42:42 GMT -8
First pic : Dorcadion Second: Agapanthia
Maybe I will tell you the species in a few time if I'll search.
Thanos
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Post by zdenol123 on May 25, 2011 6:43:26 GMT -8
Dave, ceram 2 - Opsilia coerulescens (Scopoli, 1763) ceram 1 - Agapanthia cardui (Linnaeus, 1767) ceram 3 - Pedestredorcadion ....
I would be very interested in that Pedestredorcadion - buy or exchange or just data and size.
You` ll get PM in a sec.
Zdeno
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Post by thanos on May 25, 2011 14:16:49 GMT -8
The white stripes on the elytra and pronotum of these males Dorcadion are worn - this makes identification risky . Also,many taxa of the genus Dorcadion for Greece have been revised recently. According to Pesarini and Sabbadini(2007), (Pedestre)dorcadion tassi=epirense=pindicum=etruscum. (Pedestre)dorcadion margheritae=joanninae=wewalkai=taborsky. (Pedestre)dorcadion etruscum ssp.bravardi stat.n. etc.. Also they described new species from Greece recently(like xerophilum and vincenzae in 2007,etc). Not easy to say which species are these 2 males Dorcadion.Maybe a new undescribed species?I searched for many hours and examined a lot of pictured specimens of the above(plus more) Dorcadion taxa for Greece(especially north) which are more or less similar to Dave's males,plus specimens of recently discovered Dorcadion species in Greece,plus specimens from my collection of similar Dorcadion species(to these 2 males) which I've found in N.Greece and most of which I've identified,but noone seems to me to fit exactly to these 2 interesting males.
Thanos
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Post by davemoore on May 25, 2011 14:52:47 GMT -8
Thanks for the ID's guys. Much appreciated. When I get time I may pop a few more on. Not all cerambycids though!! Dave
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Post by prillbug2 on May 25, 2011 16:19:29 GMT -8
The second picture, Agapanthia. If the penis is s-shaped in the male, it's Agapanthia cardui. If it isn't, it's Agapantha pannonica. You'll have to look at it in order to make a correct determination. I agree with the identification of Opsilia coerulescens. The Dorcadion, you'll have to obtain these papers: Breuning, S. (1962)Revision of the Dorcadionini (Coleoptera:Cerambycidae). Ent. Abhanddulungen Dresden, 2: 665pg. Also, Braun, Heyrovsky, Kratschmer, Kratschmer& Peks and Vives. I don't have the year or journal of publication for those. They were in my notes. Jeff Prill
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Post by prillbug2 on May 25, 2011 20:09:12 GMT -8
However, the genus Opsilia is being eliminated and is considered a synonym of Phytoecia, by some authors. Jeff Prill
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Post by zdenol123 on May 25, 2011 20:35:37 GMT -8
Jeff, Agapanthia cardui (Linnaeus, 1767) = Agapanthia pannonica Kratochvíl, 1985] ...just a synonym Breuning is too old, full of mistakes, invalid names, synonyms...and there is discovered about 15 new species from 1980... Jeff, there is revision of greek Dorcadions - Pesarini & Sabbadini, 4 works, 2001, 2004, 2007, 2010. Jeff, if you want these works, send me PM Anyway, as far as I know, Opsilia is valid name at this time. Thats it for now, gotta crack on with my work....
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Post by prillbug2 on May 26, 2011 17:09:33 GMT -8
Well, excuse me for trying to help. I can go to U of I to look them up. Jeff Prill
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Post by prillbug2 on May 26, 2011 18:27:10 GMT -8
By the way, the Dorcadion is Pedestredorcadion arenarium ( Poda,1763), courtesy of Hoskovic's website, Cerambycidae of the Western Palearctic Region. Look at the elytra more closely. Jeff Prill
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Post by zdenol123 on May 26, 2011 20:34:53 GMT -8
could be arenarium if it would be collected in Italy. these black " forms" lives only there as far as I know....D.P. arenarium is absolutely different from Greece, but there is possibility it could be right.... ID Dorcadions from the photo is with most species suicide, amateurism and pointless btw
Is no need for barking Jeff ! Of course your help is welcome, just you havent been right this time...you cant know everything, can you ?
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Post by prillbug2 on May 27, 2011 4:11:52 GMT -8
It's actually possibly Pedestredorcadion pedestre. I probably pulled the wrong one up when I was checking myself. I don't see small print very well. It does fit. I would rather have the specimen in hand. Cerambycidae are very difficult to identify from photographs. In many cases, they are just plain difficult and you have to go to the type specimens in order to confirm it. Breuning and past researchers could only use morphology and physiology in their research. DNA barcoding would have been too expensive if it were possible to do it then. Cladistic analysis was in its beginning stages. So, yes, mistakes were made, but they provided a basis by which we could work with. It's just a matter of getting through the muck. Jeff Prill
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Post by zdenol123 on May 27, 2011 7:28:46 GMT -8
It's actually possibly Pedestredorcadion pedestre. No Jeff, it looks like arenarium, deffo no pedestre. Truly, Breuning and Bense is like a bible, basis, but like I said there is many approved changes in Dorcadions, many new species has been discovered in Greece....at least 50% changed since Breuning`s work. Is no point to talk about that unless you havent seen the works from Carlo Pesarini and Andrea Sabbadini. Like I said, I can send you these works in PDF if you want, till then we can discuss our ideas.....like this if you havent got recent papers, it` s pointless. BTW, I study Dorcadiini, only them, so you should take my words a bit more serious Have a nice weekend all ! You english guys Bank Hol Monday...yupiiiiiiii
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