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Post by panzerman on Aug 10, 2011 18:17:24 GMT -8
The British Prime Minister was right on the money, when he correctly pointed out that these criminal acts are being carried out by mostly anarchists, criminal elements, ethnic gangs and "badly brought up youth....
He then went on to cast blame on the previous Labour govt. policies like taking discipline out of the school system, allowing to much immigration from the West Indies, Africa, Middle East, Labour Party "hug a thug" soft on crime approach. Of course he also blamed parents for not instilling virtues in their kids. Also stated that taking religion out of the schools was a contributing factor.
John
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 11:40:54 GMT -8
John, it is a well practised politicians trick to blame the previous partys shortcomings on their own failings, its been going on for years, this government thinks it can cut every service to the bare bone and the country will still run like clockwork, what thses thugs have shown is that it wont, we need more police on the streets not less, plus we have no deterent to crime in this country, when a crime is commited the pc loony do gooders have taken away all the penalties, if a murderer thought he would be put to death would he think twice about it, too bloody right he would, if the deterents were hanging, birching, and real life long jail sentences to fit crimes you would for sure see crime figures drop, no other way will work. The looting and violence has now spread to just about every town and city in the country now with everybody jumping on the bandwagon, will this just be an isolated incident?, I think not, now these idiots have got a taste for the carnage they can cause its only just the start, until the punishment fits the crime, as long as do gooding public school dick heads are running this country it can only go downhill, welcome to modern Britain.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 11:47:17 GMT -8
and as far as taking religion out of schools, you are not allowed to be a christian any more in case you upset some loony muslim who will kill you just for mentioning the word, some minority group who may become offended by any kind of beleif in a christian God. I can remember far back enough when religion was taught in schools and while I was not interested myself it did make you think about your personal responsibilities, how you treated each other, honesty and decency but its just not fashionable any more, we are too modern and sophisticated for all that nonesense nowadays because we know better, and what a great job we are making of it by trying a different way, its pure bull###.
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Post by prillbug2 on Aug 14, 2011 14:25:38 GMT -8
This is probably controversial, but England needs to arm its policemen. Alot of this idiocy could have been stopped with a few shots over the crowd, maybe. Anyway, that's my opinion, but it might not be everyones.
Jeff Prill
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Post by bobw on Aug 14, 2011 23:31:27 GMT -8
We already have plenty of occasions when our police are armed for special operations. The reason we have less gun crime than many other countries is precisely because our police are not armed. If the police are armed more criminals would arm themselves, thus creating a vicious circle.
The main reason for all these problems is the complete breakdown of discipline in schools with the result that many children are leaving school with no qualifications and no prospects.
Bob
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Post by starlightcriminal on Aug 15, 2011 3:56:34 GMT -8
There are lots of "unarmed" countries with very low gun related crime rates. We have high rates here in the US because anyone can have a gun and it isn't difficult to get one- much easier than a permit to import specimens. Criminals can't arm themselves if it is as difficult to get a gun as it is to get a collecting permit, much less if they are completely illegal. I'm sure a few guns slip through anyway, laws or not, but the overall rate is very low. It only becomes vicious cycle if everyone can get a hold of a gun.
Isn't there a growing divide between the upper and lower economic classes in the UK, not unlike here and most other places globally? I think this happens when people, on the lower end especially, those who feel more hopeless, have too much taken from them and not enough offered to occupy them otherwise. The other thing that happens, which is also happening globally, is that when economic classes start to diverge as greatly as they have, politics tends to favor conservatives because they are viewed (incorrectly often) as been "hard" on crime, spending, international policy, etc. They are also traditionally the least interested in education, so these things are all related.
I postulate that what is really going on is that people are stressed out and that in this state it takes very little to get things overheated. I can think of a number of riots that have happened since everyone's jobs started to disappear, all in Europe of course. For some reason, which I cannot explain, our population here in the US is very complacent. It's rare to find a riot here, it takes a lot to get us off of our generally over-sized bottoms. Not sure which is better, frankly.
It is noteworthy that we are also trying to blame our education system for the behaviour of our children here, rather than a lack of proper parenting and decent role models coupled with dismal future prospects.
My question about discipline in schools and lack of qualifications- what prospects do they have anyway? We have the exact problem here. Lots of kids, many of whom went all the way through university, cannot get jobs now. We have doctors (medical doctors) at the institution I work for being laid off or given a "volunteer" position until they are either officially laid off or until things recover enough to rehire them. None will be given a contract upon there return, none will be afforded the old benefits they used to get and as such all can be forced to work for far less money with equally as little security. I think the current rate for post-university job placement nationally averages 1:4. It's worse in some places and in some fields than others (though every university everywhere happily hands out giant education loans telling the recipient "yes, being an anthropoligist who specializes in classical egyptian literature is a very promising career"). Imagine if you are just average, or worse off than that. If the jobs you formerly would've taken are now being filled with PhD's and MDs because they don't have jobs anymore either, what else do you do with your time and what do you really feel like you have to lose? At the minimum you are probably sitting around with your peers, stoking the fire with conversation about how things are not working out for any of you.
I think there is a combination of unruly kids with a general feeling of hopelessness that makes people act out in this way. If these kids all had jobs and other responsibilities they might not have the interest or the time to be involved in such chaos. It's complicated for sure, but I think looking a little closer at the economy and some of the other European examples of recent riots might strongly suggest what is going on and therefor some clue of how to discourage this in the future.
As always, sad to see anyone having to deal with chaos and violence and I truly hope these things work out as quickly as possible.
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Post by wollastoni on Aug 16, 2011 0:33:23 GMT -8
In France, policemen are armed ... and we had exactly the same riots in 2005.
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Post by starlightcriminal on Aug 16, 2011 4:32:45 GMT -8
French riots not "exactly" the same. I happened to be in Paris during part of them, saw a few burned out cars and protestors gathered. But looting of everything? This is different. French was more like a protest, UK this time is just chaos I think. Excuse to loot and vandalize. There is a reason it started of course but it seems that it is perpetuated by a desire to commit crime rather than an ideologic conflict as was the case lst time in France.
For me, it's not a question of whether police have guns though (that's just commentary on gun-related violence, which is very high here in the US because so many people have them so conflicts escalate very quickly), I think it has to do with the poor outlook a lot of people in the world have right now. There was rioting in Greece not so long ago too (and Italy, right?), just not of this intensity. I think if people had their jobs back and felt like they were better able to take care of themselves and their families then they would settle down.
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Post by wollastoni on Aug 16, 2011 5:49:49 GMT -8
In France there were also mainly looting and vandalizing. The difference with UK is just geographic : in France poors are ghettoised in suburbs far from the center and far from shopping place... Thus police arrived to maintain the riots in the suburbs.
We have many youngsters in our suburbs who has to choose between being poor or being criminals... Gangs lure more and more people into their criminal activities.
As long as these people will feel they have "no future"... there will be no long-term solution.
But once gangs are in place, it is very hard to change the situation. How can you explain a 15 y-o guy to study at school and be polite to finish as a dustman, when drug dealers offer them 100€ a day just to alert when police is arriving. So yes, let's find well-paid job for all our youngs ... but I am afraid employment in Europe will keep on decreasing in the future.
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Post by lamprima2 on Aug 16, 2011 20:50:30 GMT -8
Just imagine that these bandits and looters were smart enough to form a “National Transitional Council”: NATO would have to bomb London to prevent civilian casualties and shut BBC down by air strike because it spreaded disinformation.
Sergey
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Post by wollastoni on Aug 16, 2011 22:08:38 GMT -8
Sergey < Hope you don't compare Lybian democrats with these looters...
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Post by arrowhead on Aug 17, 2011 8:44:18 GMT -8
Great topic and I think everyone's pretty well hitting the nail directly. I'm a mid fifty aged man as I believe a lot of us are. Think of how things were in our childhoods compared to our children and grandchildren's world. It is getting scary out there for everyone. I worry what their middle ages will be like (if they get them) and how much freedom, liberties, and opportunities for real educations and jobs will be left for them. I fear things will get much worse before it's over, and expect similar rioting here in the U.S. if things continue as they are and are headed.
Arrowhead
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Post by starlightcriminal on Aug 17, 2011 10:10:35 GMT -8
Frankly, we are in need of a good riot. Americans have been too complacent for too long, allowing our political system to get the better of us. Now look at the mess our lobby-driven government has gotten us into over the past decade (really I blame Reagan though I know he has been cannonized by so many of us, for reasons which I do not understand- "trickle down" anyone?). If politicians had the threat of a guillotine over their heads I bet we would be heard.
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Post by lamprima2 on Aug 17, 2011 15:20:07 GMT -8
wollastoni, there is not much info on Libyan rebels, what makes you believe they are democrats?
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Post by papilio28570 on Aug 17, 2011 17:13:33 GMT -8
Ronald Reagan!!! How did he get dragged into this discussion of British rioting? Liberals are always looking for some way to inject criticism of Reagan or Bush into every conversation. They totally fail to see the fruits of their own failed policies and the bankruptcy of their agenda. Margaret Thatcher said it best when she said, "Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money."
Trickle down worked in spite of all the socialist loons who laugh down their sleeve at the mention of it. Reagan cut top marginal tax rates (yep... the rich) from 70% to 28%. During his two terms, over 16 million jobs were created, Inflation dropped from over 12% to under 5%, Taxes paid to the government grew from 300 billion to 550 billion. Unemployment dropped from 7% to 5.5%. He tried to cut as much government as possible to reduce public dependence on government whereas all other 20th Century and later presidents seem to grow government and increase reliance of government.
Folks here are correct in their assessment. A breakdown in discipline due to a lack of credible deterrence. Schools have progressively "dumbed" down children to where most could not tell you the first thing about the history of their country, let alone utter a coherent sentence.
I listened to some British kids being interviewed on the streets during the rioting and I thought, "My God, they are as dumb as our USA generation of the same age."
Yes, there will be rioting here in the USA and likely on a much grander scale than what is seen in Britain. The liberals here have been fanning the racial flames for a couple of years now and fully intend to make the 2012 election all about race and bigotry. I predict our major cities will burn if Obama fails to win re-election.
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