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Post by bichos on Sept 12, 2011 3:53:14 GMT -8
Too right, thanks for the correction;)
PARASITISM it is and yes we are good at it.
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Post by bathcat on May 19, 2012 11:53:19 GMT -8
I may be going over to the Philippines for business soon, I was thinking of just recruiting local kids to collect beetles for me, paying a set amount of p-pesos for each one. Is this going to attract the wrong kind of attention? I don't relish the idea of some corrupt cop taking it upon himself to go "investigate" what the white guy out in front of the general store is doing offering kids money for beetles, and then hauling me in on some bull### charge cause I couldn't cough up whatever amount he thought he deserved.
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Post by mygala on May 21, 2012 19:22:15 GMT -8
I find it interesting that so many people have so many ways to break the local laws and hide the fact that they are doing so. The obvious lack of ethics aside, I find it ironic that the authorities are the only ones referred to as "corrupt" in this thread. ...and still people wonder why Law Enforcement and Customs Authorities treat legal collectors as criminals. In answer to Wolf's question, you need an export permit/license from their Deparment of Environment and Natural Resources (DENR) office. For contact numbers of any country, I usually look on the CITES website under the National Contacts. Even for non-CITES animals, the contacts are usually the same. For the Philippines: www.cites.org/cms/index.php/lang-en/component/cp/?country=PH |
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Post by wollastoni on May 21, 2012 23:56:26 GMT -8
"The obvious lack of ethics aside" ...
I can't see why collecting non-endangered species outside of protected areas could be non-ethical even if local authorities ban insect collecting to keep on killing the nature.
Of course if permits are really issued (like in Spain), the best way is to obtain a permit.
Personnally I think the best system would be an international permit that is issued by local Associations and/or State. The money should go to preserve biotopes or finance Museums.
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Post by lepidofrance on May 22, 2012 1:10:39 GMT -8
"I find it interesting That So Many People Have So Many Ways to break the local Laws and hide the Fact That They Are doing so. The obvious LACK of ethics aside, I find it ironic That the Authorities are the only ones Referred to as" corrupt "in this thread." Behavior "ethics" is not to enforce fools laws and regulations made ​​ by politicians and environmentalists madmen who know nothing about the realities entomological and, as already stated, most often want to feel good when they close eyes (in fact, often complicit and accomplices by financial interest) on deforestation and aberrant pesticide use. In my case, my ethics is: - To capture only a few samples of the same species (I do not collect to sell); - Not to catch the species actually threatened (for example: I shoot without the capture of Mount Luberon Parnassius apollo in the South of France); - To use the least amount of products made of palm oil; - Not to drive too fast on roads with many butterflies fly (as the road from Vera Cruz to Jalapa, Mexico, where thousands of Pieridae where flying); - To own or collectively (through my association) to popularize the issues of protection of endangered species; and so on, and so on ! As humanity has known since antiquity, ethics is not to obey the laws but to act according to rational principles and in accordance with his own conscience.  |
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Post by thanos on May 22, 2012 14:07:15 GMT -8
'Behavior "ethics" is not to enforce fools laws and regulations made ​​ by politicians and environmentalists madmen who know nothing about the realities entomological and, as already stated, most often want to feel good when they close eyes (in fact, often complicit and accomplices by financial interest) on deforestation and aberrant pesticide use.' - Jean-Marc, well said, I'd only add the 'pseudo' before environmentalists as well the 'rotten' to politicians. Personally, I have them all written to my balls and keep enjoying this exciting science and hobby. I don't collect any endangered/forbidden species, neither in protected areas, for imports of Ornithoptera etc I always get and keep the Cites paperwork, other Cites 2 species ,-or even my alexandrae-, that I have in collection are from old collections/inherited from my father/grandfather, and noone can touch me  . Thanos |
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Post by mygala on May 22, 2012 20:59:41 GMT -8
So the message I get, is that it's okay to break the laws you don't agree with. That's ethical?
With that attitude, I can't imagine why any customs officials would even bother to inspect you or your shipments, let alone treat collectors as criminals.
My slightly incredulous sarcasm aside, I do agree that in many countries, there is are varying degrees of corruption. However, I don't see how illegal collecting and the resulting smuggling puts you at any moral or ethical disadvantage from the corrupt officials. You are knowingly breaking the law for your own selfish reasons.
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Post by thanos on May 22, 2012 21:37:13 GMT -8
If tomorrow a crazy one makes a law that says me to 'f**k' my sister, would I be unethical that of course break it ? With the same way, if those crazy and entomologically unknowledgeable men in a few years prohibit totally the insect collection, they will f**k entomology. I break everything is stupid in my life. Btw, it hasn't happened yet to have broken any law ,but if in future entomology will be in danger of extinction cause of idiots, then of course I will do it with much of happiness.
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Post by Chris Grinter on May 22, 2012 22:19:23 GMT -8
Thanos - your arguments are not equivocal. So you can defy all laws for all things simply become you don't like them and someone "could do something even worse tomorrow"? The ethical and moral thing to do is obey the laws of your country, even if you disagree with them. On one hand there is nothing immoral or unethical about not being able to collect insects (even though it would really, really suck) - but what you equate this to is both immoral and unethical, therefore NOT obeying your sister law would be moral and ethical.
The fact is that in the modern world we are faced with some pretty stupid laws when it comes to collecting. While defying them is an option, it's not a good one and NOT one we should be discussing! Encouraging illegal activity should not be allowed here, especially if we care about keeping InsectNet alive and healthy.
The only thing we can do is CHANGE THE LAWS. Sign petitions, speak to your local governmental officials, and create a real voice for hobbyists and scientists. The only reason some of these bad laws get on the books is because of ignorance. Either insects are treated like mammals because people don't know better - or another anti-killing group has lobbied these laws into existence. Get the government out of our nets!
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Post by thanos on May 22, 2012 22:47:42 GMT -8
'On one hand there is nothing immoral or unethical about not being able to collect insects'
Chris, how a small child with interest/inclination in insects will be able to cultivate these and become a future useful and knowledgeable entomologist if he/she is unable to collect any insect and study it ? Just with photography..? Or we like to have (especially in the universities) only unknowledgeable 'entomologists' (there is not by chance that all of these unknowledgeable -or with very limited skills/knowledge/love for entomology- people don't have collection) who are helped by the professor and get work there only cause they 'suck' him well ? It is both immoral and unethical to do this to the really interested in insects children and kill this way slowly a science so useful to the world.
I agree that we must change such laws with our voices (and not allow the pseudo-ecologists with economic benefits to act free) by pointing out the need of collecting to science and that it is not the reason of species becoming endangered, but the habitat destruction (and that laws must become really effective against everyone destroys natural ecosystems for his economic benefits, and not against us).
This is an official site that not only collectors read it...,so I try to show to people what is the truth behind such laws and how wrong they are, what/who are the real dangers/ous for this world, and make people to think the things better.
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Post by wollastoni on May 22, 2012 23:15:02 GMT -8
Could we discuss of this important topic without all these words in -uck...?
Chris is right, the most important thing is to change these stupid laws ! But I do think the ethic is not on the side of these laws for the moment, I hope it willl change.
And I don't think it's a good thing for entomology if amateur collecting is stopped in Brazil, Mexico, Indonesia... as it should be the case. Maybe one day in many years, local laws will change there... but there won't be any forest anymore. Many amateur entomologists who collect there take a lot of risk and it is not for money, it is for entomology !
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Post by lepidofrance on May 23, 2012 1:34:34 GMT -8
Take a country like Indonesia: vast surfaces undergo total deforestation for palm oil for the paper industry. The Indonesian government, in the name of "conservation" banned collecting butterflies. Is it ethical to respect the laws made ​​by such leaders (who are often themselves involved financially in the industries of oil palm or pulp)? Of course, you can always ask permission to LIPI for scientific reasons. With any luck, many bureaucratic procedures, authorizations will be obtained within two or three years after having lived an exciting experience kafkaesque (I speak knowingly)! On the merits, I fully agree with the speakers of this forum explaining that we must fight for the abolition of unjust and stupid laws. This struggle can be waged at the individual level. Entomologists must organize themselves into associations capable of being heard by government and institutions. Take the case of France. Authorities, following the advice of some environmentalists licensed and madmen, had entered on a red list number of butterflies. In the Alpes-de-Haute-Provence (South-East of France), in part because of the presence of Papilio alexanor, the ban had become total: no collection possible (adults, caterpillars, eggs), prohibition of farming, etc.. An aberration even more complete than P. alexanor is not (there) an endangered species. Same situation in Corsica about Papilio hospiton, although this species is not threatened (and very abundant in some locations). Through our association (ALF) who participated in the various decision-making, positive changes befallen in the past two years: - The red list was amended : few butterflies that were not on the list but, in reality, were actually threatened, have been added to this list. Others contained therein without reason, were removed from the list. (About European red list : see : www.lepido-france.fr/2010/04/european-red-list-of-butterflies/ ; we shall publish asap the new french red list) - The prohibition of collection in the Alpes de Haute-Provence has been lifted. To achieve such results, it became necessary that entomologists (professional or amateur, without or provided with permission), defying prohibitions, go on-site verify the reality of things. This is what I consider an ethical and responsible behavior. That said, France is a democratic country where corruption of rulers is rather small. Conversely, what can one expect from rulers deep-seated corruption as is the case in those countries where precisely the collection of insects is increasingly prohibited. Conclude by formulating (again) this little comparison: - Brazil: deforestation, widespread use of GMOs and total ban on hunting butterflies! Ethics? - French Guiana: Amazon Forest almost intact (except for the presence of mercury in rivers due to illegal Brazilian miners) and authorized collection of butterflies!
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Post by lepidofrance on May 23, 2012 1:50:03 GMT -8
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Post by lepidofrance on May 23, 2012 2:06:28 GMT -8
  Here's a question (perhaps naive!) That I wish I had an answer. If we stick to butterflies favorites of collectors (the "beautiful" butterflies): - In Asia, we have the Troides, the Trogonoptera, the Ornithoptera: all protected CITES (although many of them are very abundant and not threatened); - Central America and South America, we have Morphos, as far as I know, they are not registered to CITES (it is true that many are abundant, as M. menelaus in Guyana). Why these protections especially on Asian butterflies and not on the American? In Europe, some gossips tell (I doubt this is true!) That in CITES negotiations, U.S. officials were intended to counter the Japanese entomologists by reducing the possibilities of exploration in Asia ... It sounds silly! But the rumor ...
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Post by jshuey on May 23, 2012 12:05:01 GMT -8
So the message I get, is that it's okay to break the laws you don't agree with. That's ethical? With that attitude, I can't imagine why any customs officials would even bother to inspect you or your shipments, let alone treat collectors as criminals. My slightly incredulous sarcasm aside, I do agree that in many countries, there is are varying degrees of corruption. However, I don't see how illegal collecting and the resulting smuggling puts you at any moral or ethical disadvantage from the corrupt officials. You are knowingly breaking the law for your own selfish reasons. I have to agree entirely with mygala. You can't confuse the ethics of collecting insects with the ethics of breaking national laws. I happen to agree that collecting insects is OK. I do it as much as possible. But I try my best not to break laws.- I take the time required to get permits if I'm outside the US collecting. Yes it is a pain in the royal ass, but it can be done. I see people repeating the "myths" that you can't get permits from Brasil, Mexico, etc. (you can - and I have done it). But it's an investment of time, energy and reputation to do so. It may take a year or two to pull it off, but it can be done. And if you fail, then oh well, they're just dead insects you now, it's not the end of the world. So, if you are not willing to invest said time in following the laws, don't go to those countries.... But like mygala says, don't go getting all self-righteous about how it's OK to break other country's laws, "because I don't agree with those laws". That's Bull Crap and I think most of us know it. And that is why rouge collectors give the rest of us a bad reputation, making it harder and harder to work within the system... shuey |
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