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Post by lucanidae25 on Sept 4, 2011 16:46:56 GMT -8
I was also very surprised to find Actias maenas in Tam Dao this time. This is the 1st time I've seen A. maenas from Vietnam.   |
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Post by lucanidae25 on Sept 4, 2011 17:15:05 GMT -8
It was 10-15 July 2004 in Naning Guangdong China the area where Tienopalpus aereus are found. I only collected the A1 specimens and left the damaged on the light sheet. I turn the light off and want to find out which sp would be still on the light sheet 1/2 hours later, I've found a pair of A. selene mateing on the light sheet and the same thing in Cao Bang.
Ohhh sorry I don't have a single pinned specimen in my collection only papered. I don't have the room to house pinned specimens in my place. They would take up too much room.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 5, 2011 11:40:47 GMT -8
The Thai who studied Saturniidae of northern Thailand for his masters degree gave me his opinion.
Firstly he said there are 7 species of Actias in Vietnam plus a single record of dubernardii. These are chapae, rhodopneuma, selene, maenas, sinensis, parasinensis and angulocaudata (syn. australovietnama), with sinensis in the area north of the Red River valley and parasinensis south of that valley.
For identification purposes, these can be split into 2 groups:
1. chapae, dubernardii, rhodopneuma & selene which have a straight postmedial line
2. maenas, sinensis, parasinensis & angulocaudata which all have a wavy postmedial line.
Your specimen has a straight postmedial line, therefore belongs to group 1.
A. chapae has a rounded forewing apex and the forewing eyespot is rounded and has very elongate tails.
A. rhodopneuma female is easily distinguished by the narrow crescent forewing eyespot.
A. dubernardii female also has a crescent eyespot, and elongate pink narrow part of the tails (green in rhodopneuma).
A. selene has a rounded forewing eyespot and angular forewing apex compared to chapae, with shorter tails. There are other differences of less importance too.
He said that firstly your specimen is almost certainly a female ("75% from the photo"), and also almost certainly A. selene ("98%"). He thinks you were mistaken about it mating wth a female on your sheet, probably they were in a mating-like position, but not actually copulating.
He also pointed out that your females from Guangdong are actually A. ningpoana, which may be a subspecies of selene. Note the yellow outer half of the eyespot, which is pink in selene.
Adam.
PS. To me, the specimen is definitely a female, I have often seen females which have tips of abdomens that look like the one in the photo when dry, never mind the fact that your specimen has narrow antennae, and wingshape indicative of a female.
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Post by lucanidae25 on Sept 5, 2011 16:55:53 GMT -8
Thanks Adam,
Thank you for your clearification on that specimen. So is it just a A. selene female aberration?
I never came across A. selene with tail like that? I've alway seen the ordinary green with a little bit of pink on the tail.
Raymond
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 5, 2011 22:33:51 GMT -8
I am not really familiar with the variation of A. selene, being a Papilionidae man, but as far as I know there is a lot of taxonomic uncertainty in the selene complex; and since Cao Bang is in the northeast of Vietnam not far from Guangxi it is always possible that your specimen is a female of a different population/species/subspecies from that area. As Thierry posted above, a revision of the group is underway and maybe we'll have answers when that is finally published.
Adam.
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Post by africaone on Sept 5, 2011 22:46:01 GMT -8
Adam, angulocaudata (syn. australovietnama) i have serious doubt. There are different species in this group ("angulocaudata") and one of them is australovietnama (clearly different tails shape not angulose on his inner margin). Is this synonymy yet published ? Thierry |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 6, 2011 6:15:39 GMT -8
Thierry,
I have no idea, I was just reporting what I was told by the Thai 'expert'.
Adam.
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Post by oehlkew on Sept 6, 2011 7:42:17 GMT -8
I have posted replies to all interested regarding the specimen taken by Raymond from Cao Bang, Vietnam at www.silkmoths.bizland.com/ActiasCaoBangVietnamrc.htmI have included some images and definitely feel the specimen is a female, but am reasonably sure that it is not a female selene. I also offer comments about ningpoana, possibly in Vietnam, possibility that specimen represents something new, closer to rhodopneuma than to selene. I also agree with Africa One that angulocaudata and australovietnama are different and feel there is an additional subspecies of chapae in Vietnam. My reasons for indicating it is not selene are posted on the above link, with a short summary of this entire thread. Bill Oehlke |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 6, 2011 13:02:36 GMT -8
Bill,
Great summary! You make some good arguments as far as I can see (not being so familiar with the Actias species myself). I have sent your link on to the Thai expert.
The only thing I would raise is the assertion that I missed Raymond's point in reply #9 above. He stated "Here are females Actias selene from Guangdong China on top and this Actias sp female from Cao Bang Vietnam bottom".
However, on examination of the photo it was clear to me that not only was the lower specimen not the same individual that he originally asked us to help identify, but also was not the same species (it seems to be a second ningpoana). I therefore assumed that Raymond had made some sort of error in reply #9.
Adam.
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Post by oehlkew on Sept 6, 2011 13:37:38 GMT -8
Adam,
Thanks.
Perhaps Raymond will respond to that. I think at the time of his posting of the females, he still felt his original image was a male, and I interpreted his second posting of the female from Cao Bang as the female the "male" was next to on the sheet.
I will be very interested to hear what your Thai contact thinks.
I hope Raymond will pursue the recommendations in this thread further by 1) spreading and displaying spread specimens, 2) confirming that the female that looks like ningpoana
is for sure from Cao Pang, Vietnam, and 3) consider submission of legs for DNA analysis. Perhaps Cao Pang is an area that is not frequently visited by collectors.
I am also hoping that a reader on this forum will submit a verso image of Actias rhodopneuma.
I also hope to find out if Raymond is doing his own collecting, or is possibly purchasing specimens from other collectors, in which case
data is very suspect.
I will also ask WLSS membership who might have rhodopneuma females to send me verso images for comparison.
Bill Oehlke
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Post by africaone on Sept 6, 2011 13:57:22 GMT -8
yes, the verso looks like those of the rhodopneuma female (comparaison with my female from Vietnam, Chapa). mine is not so fresh and pink is quite visible on those of Raymond (also the inner black part of the ocellus is more blackish, all of these are minor differnces). a set specimen had helped quite much as it is very characterictic.
Thierry
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Post by saturniidave on Sept 6, 2011 14:35:50 GMT -8
I would go with ningpoana myself but as Bill said earlier a spread specimen would help confirm the identity.
Bill, I will try and photograph the verso of my female rhodopneuma.
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Post by lucanidae25 on Sept 6, 2011 14:41:12 GMT -8
I'm sure I haven't make any misstake, the 1st pic and the bottom of the 2 females are from the same area in Cao Bong. Northern Vietnam has the same kind of habitat to Guangxi and Guangdong. I know with Lucanidae 95% are found in both Tam Dao and Guangdong. There for wouldn't surprise me the same thing is happening with Saturniidae from both areas. I had already compared the female rhodopneuma and the 1st pic specimen on the top. I don't think it's a female rhodopneuma. I had a closer look at the antennae of the 1st specimen on top and it looks more like a male to me than a female. Attachments:
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Post by oehlkew on Sept 6, 2011 15:15:22 GMT -8
Raymond,
I think the females in the double pictures (third image posting) that you sent from China and Vietnam are Actias ningpoana, and it would not surprise me for this species to have a presence in northeastern Vietnam as it is documented in eastern China and at least as far south as Hong Kong, and in Taiwan.
Females of many Saturniidae species have feathery antennae, but usually they are not so broad as in the males of the same species. the closeup of the antennae that you have just posted look like female antennae to me.
You may have one or more new species in the images you have posted, but I think they are closely allied to ningpoana and to rhodopneuma if they are not those two species.
I am hoping Dave or Thierry will post a picture of the verso image of a female rhodopneuma, and a closeup of the antennae would also help.
I have also made some special requests to other WLSS members to provide verso images and closeups of antennae. I will post them if I receive them.
You might have one or more new species in the images you have posted, but it may require DNA testing to confirm or reject that.
Bill Oehlke
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Post by africaone on Sept 6, 2011 22:37:14 GMT -8
here is a rhodopneuma female verso (Chapa, Vietnam)  Thierry ps : Bill you can used it for WLSS if needed. Attachments:
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