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Post by homard on Sept 19, 2011 7:22:12 GMT -8
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Post by wollastoni on Sept 19, 2011 7:56:29 GMT -8
You should offer him a Graphium levassori ... ;-)
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Post by starlightcriminal on Sept 19, 2011 8:41:01 GMT -8
I hardly think a reputation in Entomology means anything at all to the authorities here- John Kemner, a man with plenty of entomological reputation, learned this as did all the researchers who benefited from his illegally collected Mexican Hesperids. Paperwork matters, that's it period in the US so far as I can tell. Maybe things are different where you are nomihoudai. The laws here historically not only made those specimens illegal, whether or not you claim they are collected legally because you are so "reputable" (some national collections, for example, had material confiscated)- and even further, all recipients of said specimens and anything else the agents who may or may not be very informed deem "questionable" can have their specimens all confiscated too. Not great advice for US folks I don't think as our legal history clearly demonstrates.
Are you in France by chance (I say just because of name, could be completely off base here)? Seems that it is much more entomology-friendly there, I'm envious. In fact while I was there the last two times I had a chance to browse around and I ran into may little shops that had all kinds of taxidermy from shells to birds and mammals and lots of insects of course, some right in Paris in Monteparnasse district. Would not find something like this in downtown NY, for example, just clothing and coffee. It's a little strange being not exposed to it besides deer antlers and such, but fascinating and an interesting social more that deviates from a lot of the neighboring countries and the US. Scientists and amateurs alike would really benefit from more reasonable treament like this everywhere else. Is this the case? And do you have any idea why this type of curiosity thrives there where it is often unjustly demonized elsewhere? Here some people really consider you almost a murderer for pinning a butterfly, as though it is so much different from a beetle or fly.
Lol, wollastoni. I'll pin it in a display made of ebony with a cushion made of CA condor down, wrap it in a tiger hide for presentation.
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Post by wollastoni on Sept 19, 2011 8:54:57 GMT -8
starlight < in France, there is a list of protected species and protected areas. If you respect the law, then no authorities will harass you with paperworks, customs and so on. Let say our police is concentrated on real traffics (drugs...). It is the same in most European countries. When on field collecting in France, 99% of people are nice and just stare a bit at you and then go away. 1% are aggressive. But I would say it is the same in Canada, in Asia where I have been many times. When you talk about your passion to others : let say 50% of people will think you are totally crazy. Others will find that funny. As in the rest of the world (except maybe Japan), people prefer to go to cinema, danceclubs, football games instead of collecting leps. About the store in Montparnasse, I guess you are talking of Deyrolle shop. It is a fantastic place, but it is more an heritage of a glorious past (19th century) than a very fashion shop where all Parisians love going. www.deyrolle.com/magazine/spip.php?article153 |
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Post by nomihoudai on Sept 19, 2011 9:54:59 GMT -8
>from his illegally collected Mexican Hesperids ...well I guess the word ILLEGALY was the problem there. My remark on getting a reputation was not meant to give you the right of doing illegal activities based on your countries legislation but it was meant that it will give you the credibility that a stray of Morpho luna is found in Texas when you say so. When you got reputation among fellow entomologists working full-time at an institution an the police turns up for your Morpho luna a few phone calls should do the trick to verify it actually came from there ( not to lie for you if it didn't) Now for the other question, I am not sure if it was meant for me, but anyway,...my first name is Claude and I come from a country that is considered francophone, but I am pretty horrible at speaking French. I am speaking about Luxembourg. My country is somewhat collecting unfriendly...it is only allowed under permits, you can get the permits with scientific purposes in mind, but it will give you a huge amount of stupid, unnecessary paperwork. Because of that I like to simply cross the borders to Germany, France and Belgium and collect there considering the local regulations. France is pretty nice for collecting butterflies, it still has a nice diversity and the protected species are rather well tought off and there is just a few of them. Furthermore my country disregards if a species is protected in the country of origin as I guess in most countries here in Europe. The police has better things to do... a few times a year a killed drug smuggler/dealer turns up in the capitol city and they have better things to do than going after a butterfly which came from Mexico that didn't have the correct papers with it. Thx Olivier for posting the link, I already spoke to my girlfriend that we will need to visit Paris soon  Even tough prieces might be higher in that shop I would like to acquire such a "piece of art" from a kind of shop that is dissappearing in our society. |
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Post by wollastoni on Sept 19, 2011 10:10:18 GMT -8
Claude,
Well Deyrolle prices are very high indeed.
He is known to be the best taxidermist in the world, so his best mammals (with CITES) can worth 100000 € or more... I know he has many customers in Persic Gulf, Russia with very large pockets. This shop is more and more seen as a modern art shop.
But yes it is mandatory to have a look to Deyrolle shop and MNHN when you are visiting Paris !
A scene of last Woody Allen's film was shoted at Deyrolle's. This shop is really magical !
Although their butterflies are not interesting for collectors (high price for common species).
PS : your french is very good.
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Post by starlightcriminal on Sept 20, 2011 5:58:09 GMT -8
Yes, Deyrolle. It is very impressive, there are a lot of weird things in there that you certainly would have a heck of time getting a hold of should you be so inclined. Everything for sale though, if you have "very large pockets." I saw other similar shop near the Seine (none as fancy and impressive, but still taxidermy) and in other cities in France too, I was delighted to see that dead insects were not just the stuff of the occasional insect show that caters strictly to hobbyist but rather just a normal shop on any old street. I don't think such a thing exists nearby me at all, probably fairly scarce in the US altogether I would guess. I've never seen one. Just places with odd hunting trophy of a deer, moose or fish and usually not the sole focus.
I wonder why France has maintained this sensibility so well compared to a lot of its neighbors? Just curious. I like it, I wish more places were like France. Japan goes a bit over-board for me, there's a line between interest in the natural world and complete and utter exploitation thereof that I think Japan crosses in my mind in many circumstances, but nonetheless the interest in scientific hobbies is quite fascinating.
I think your English is good too, nomi. I see what you mean about reputation- my feeling here is that it still wouldn't matter, I think once authority has decided to become a pain in your but then they will prosecute anyway because it becomes about winning and losing vs. the actual transgression of the law and whether or not the specimen was gained lawfully and valuable in terms of scientific information. Of course I haven't run into this, but it's my impression from people who have and from people in other fields that run into similar difficulties. You give a simple man some power and boy will he ever want to exercise it.
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Post by wollastoni on Sept 20, 2011 6:04:18 GMT -8
starlight < I think it is an heritage of natural science passion in Europe in the 19th century.
I guess we should find such places in London too.
Not sure there are more amateur entomologists in Europe than in North America.
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Post by africaone on Sept 20, 2011 6:42:27 GMT -8
I visited Deyrolle some years ago and in the supplements boxes I found 2 pairs Euphaedra overlaeti (2 pairs) !
the only I have ever seen for sale.
otherwise, yes it is very expansive and without scientific interest.
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Post by starlightcriminal on Sept 20, 2011 10:31:43 GMT -8
Wollastoni I was mentally postulating that was the reason- the great Victorian era of imperial exploration and discovery. Europe basically revealed the world in the terms which we know it now, at great cost in some cases of course. Just wondering if it was remnant or if there was some other newer cultural phenomenon that make people more excited about traditional natural history fields than here in the US where we are heavy medicine or non-educated. Quite a few papers out currently about the general suspicion and disregard of science in our current social climate, I guess short of our own Victoria we won't be making much progress on that front. I hear every season when love bugs appear that they are a result of scientists "releasing them to see what would happen" which is absolutely crazy. But they pop up twice a year and always at least a few people want to mention it to me when I say I am scientist, as though my field is at all related or as though they even know what they are talking about. Just an example and a small one, but it's a pervasive attitude I run into a lot. It's not so much the Deyrolle has these super rare unknown or under-collected organisms, it's the sensibility that drives a culture to be supportive of the idea of collection and study that I'm curious about. I'm sure there's a degree of "ooh, that's pretty" that goes into what is available at these types of places, but the fact that they exist, that people don't see a pinned butterfly and think you are a killer or a crazy person, indicates that the way these types of things are perceived is very different than it would be by the general public of the US. At best insects are farmed like livestock for wedding releases and stuff like that. But rarely do you encounter someone who collects to see what's out there, what they can observe that might deviate, and so on as I hear so many of you from elsewhere discussing. I bet the larger percentage of them here are professionals or businessmen. Much less personal scientific curiosity I think. I could be completely wrong though, it's just the impression I get through dealing with the public. I don't have any real numbers, but I do live in a place with professional entomologists galore along with all the other fields around, so I would expect it to be even more science-friendly here than in an average city as there isn't much else but assorted sciences going on here (we have no industry to speak of, just education and research on the public level). Thanks for the insights, another interesting topic tackled by the great minds of insectnet  |
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Post by saturniidave on Sept 20, 2011 16:53:24 GMT -8
I can't say for the rest of Europe but here in the U.K. 99% of entomologists are strictly amateur. The few professionals either work at the Natural History Museum in London or for the Government i.e. DEFRA
I know many collectors here from all walks of life from doctors and veterinary surgeons to motor mechanics and shop workers, but I only know one or two professionals.
Most of the people here with an interest in insects are 'bug-huggers' or strictly photographers, they are the ones who expect me to be able to identify any British moth by a photo of it in repose, even when the underwings or genitalia need to be examined to determine the species. They seem puzzled when I say I need to see other parts to identify it.
There are a lot of 'Antis' here also who can cause trouble so one needs to keep a low profile when collecting. Plus of course the yob element who delight in beating up 'nerds' who collect insects.
Regarding pinned specimens, well I tried three times to sell cases of 'pretty butterflies' with very limited success, folks just aren't interested even from a decorative point of view. I used to do quite well with British leps at one of the insect fairs but sadly that one has moved to a venue too distant for me to get to. There is the London Insect Fair but most visitors to there these days want to buy live spiders and stick insects, or the few real collectors are only after the rare stuff or the occasional bargain. I used to do this fair regularly but I will not bother this year as I barely made enough to cover my costs at the last two shows.
As to a shop like the Deyrolle one, well there is certainly none in London and if there was I do not think they woulddo much business. The only one I know that is remotely similar is Watkins and Doncaster out here in Kent.
Dave
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Post by bobw on Sept 21, 2011 1:27:08 GMT -8
I have to agree with what Dave says. I don't believe there have been any shops like Deyrolle's in London at least since WW2. Companies like WWB and W&D have had shops in the past - the ones in Lyme Regis and Brighton spring to mind - but they didn't last too long so presumably they weren't economically viable.
I have also given up trying to sell specimens at shows here in Britain. Leicester/Kettering used to be reasonable but since its demise I've given Newark a go twice and sold a grand total of £10 worth of specimens, failing to cover my costs of about £150, so I won't be going there again. Kempton Park is a little better but the last few years I did it I only just covered my costs. Now they've moved back to their normal date it clashes with Prague and I'd always rather go there.
I know most of the people that work at BMNH so I guess I know a few more professionals, but as Dave says, there is no longer much tradition of professional entomologists in this country; this seems to be in stark contrast to the US, where there seem to be several entomologists working in universities - I certainly regularly correspond with several of them.
The huge contrast in attitudes to collecting in Britain and the US never ceases to amaze me. I haven't done any collecting here for several years now, but when I did I would only ever carry a spring net in my pocket and make sure nobody was in sight before getting it out. I'd get so much grief from anyone who saw me, even when collecting in one of the few places with no collecting restrictions, that it just wasn't worth it. I've done four longish collecting trips in the US in recent years and was shocked at first when my collecting companion would happily tell anyone we met that we were collecting butterflies. Without exception, everyone we met thought it was really "cool" and wanted to talk about it and see specimens. Even officials in National Forests wished us luck.
In contrast, regulations mean that it's incredibly expensive for anyone in the US to import/export deadstock and almost impossible to import/export livestock. Here there are virtually no restrictions except on CITES species.
Bob
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Post by thanos on Sept 21, 2011 21:16:20 GMT -8
'otherwise, yes it is very expansive and without scientific interest.' - Yes. I visited it in my 15's . The quality of many specimens is also not good. That time I spent really too much money from my father's wallet, for buying some super-over-priced not rare (but impressive) specimens of second quality (Argema mittrei with glued abdomen/antennae, beetles with missing/glued tarsa, Thysania agrippina with missing antennae,etc). Collecting data completely absent in most of specimens. But, for a 15 year old child with a passion in insects,I have to say that it was an unforgetable experience. I was feeling like I was the happiest person in the world,having obtained for the first time tropical impressive insects which,until then,I was dreaming from my entomological books since the age of 5.. Now it's completely different, I(like all of you) have the internet and can get easily (when I have the money of course,not all times) rare foreign specimens(the ones of my country I collect all myself in nature) of great quality and at much more reasonable prices(in relation to their rarity) than Deyrolle's. Imagine how much would cost a female Charaxes fournierae(for example) at this maison, when I gave in 1998 6000 French Franks to buy from them a repaired pair of Ornithoptera goliath supremus..(Ok,I was a child then,and fortunately with very very good parents..  ). Also,some wrong identifications in Deyrolle's specimens,like : female of Ascalapha odorata labeled as Erebus odora, female Ornithoptera tithonus labeled as O.goliath,etc. Thanos |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2011 1:33:49 GMT -8
I was feeling like I was the happiest person in the world,having obtained for the first time tropical impressive insects
it was exactly the same for me when a man opened up an entomological store on our local market for a couple of years, I was 13 and my mum let me save up my pocket money and took me every 3 months, up to this point I had only seen common British stuff from around my area but the thrill of buying common birdwings like priamus and brookina, morphos and big colourful common swallowtsails made me sick with exitement, I didnt sleep the night before, it was better than christmas.
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Post by thanos on Sept 23, 2011 2:57:18 GMT -8
'I didnt sleep the night before, it was better than christmas' As Clark says, 'yeeeah baby' .. ! Thanos |
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Even tough prieces might be higher in that shop I would like to acquire such a "piece of art" from a kind of shop that is dissappearing in our society.
).