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Post by zdenol123 on Oct 15, 2011 13:39:15 GMT -8
im pissing myself ;D Btw, I know 2 greek " entomologists " and you wont believe that both are same...guess what I mean  |
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Post by africaone on Oct 15, 2011 14:37:01 GMT -8
it is incredible   to see that members that revendicates to be entomologist denied so much the work of so many others recognised specialist ! They haven't any idea of how the science is working, haven't yet published anything themselves to propose their discoveries or studies, enclosed in their own scheme without any window open to the outside. sad also to see that google become a reference without any kind of caution about the reliabilty of the information provided ! i. e. lineta / livornica is a problem well studied in recent and reliable papers ! Of course that needs to be informed and to make the effort to find, read and understand the papers ! may be it is too easy for some people |
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Post by saturniidave on Oct 15, 2011 18:06:00 GMT -8
IMHO from what I have read and seen they are two different species, genetically and morphologically. Also lineata- New World, livornica, Old World.
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Post by thanos on Oct 15, 2011 18:13:44 GMT -8
zdenol ---> You, Mr. foreign(czech,slovak,I don't care) 'entomologist' (I'm pissing myself), learn first to distinguish the sex of the species, or Capnodis tenebricosa from tenebrionis or Dytiscus from Cybister (and many other mistakes of your ebay sales).I thought that you were better in beetles than butterflies  . Btw,I'm still waiting you to visit me,but your 'threats' are too girlish. africaone ----> you, 'Mr.SCIENCE' (R.Perger has told them to you well in the old forum), keep selling your 'super discoveries' (yes you had luck to see 'jolybouyeri' of the acraeoides group,while hunting other butterflies), without willing to provide any requested info/proof about your work without money. Btw, Mr. 'Africa specialist' , I have requested a confirmation of the ssp. of Charaxes lactetinctus from Uganda in another thread,but you still haven't posted something about it. And btw,the fact that someone hasn't posted a paper yet (especially if he lives in a country where all the 'entomologists' in the agricultural universities are only interested for money and keep posting the same and the same again on 1-2 well-studied insects-pests like Ceratitis capitata or Aphis sp. with a lot of ready bibliography) doesn't mean that he doesn't know entomology,have spent endless hours in the field with collecting or have learned many interesting things from his collecting experience and by reading,about the biology,behaviour etc of species which you don't even know. About this common but beautiful white-lined Hyles -even it is finally lineata or livornica- I have much enjoyed collecting it since my age of 5, while flying at nights and sucking nectar on Lonicera sp., I've seen its caterpillars in nature,I know its biology and behaviour. This is the important for me. Now,if it's actually the same species or not with its american close relative (with so identical morphology,biology,etc),I've not read the latest molecular studies on them(neither are available to me),haven't checked their genitalia, neither I'm a Sphingidae specialist at last. In the books that I have read till now,the European one is treated,too,as Hyles lineata or H.lineata livornica . And cause they seem so identical to me morphologically, I think -at least till now- that they're the same species. Does this seem so strange to you, 'gods of the science' (lolen)  If I will read these latest papers(if sometime available somewhere here) ,with molecular and/or genitalial proofs, I will may change my mind. Anyway,you well undestand what I'm writing. And I already dealt a lot with this subject. A nice and rare female of Antheraea montezuma from Mexico is now waiting me in the relaxer to enjoy spreading it. -bb Thanos And something last, Mister 'AS' = 'African Science' ; I'm pretty sure that the 3-year experiment of my degree thesis in the university alone (it was the first time that someone made such work in Greece,other than the same things on 2-3 insect pests with plenty of ready bibliography but well-paid by the programmes of university research ...) requires more personal effort,work,and taxonomic skills than all of your papers together. Try to study the really rich insect fauna of a big area and identify so many species of many different families of almost all insect orders (even tiny and difficult species under stereoscope),also to put each month for 3 years( =36 times) so many traps in different types of habitats in a large area -and all of these alone,without anyone's help.. And then we talk. Thierry,why I'm telling all these...I don't have something personal with you and you know it. And you are maybe very good in what you have done in entomology. But..this that really makes me sad,is the fact that you totally de-value someone (and not only me) scientifically,-no matter he maybe collects seriously insects for many years and has given a lot of personal effort during many personal collecting trips each year- ,just because he hasn't read some recent papers(or he hasn't posted any paper yet) and thus he keeps some things in his mind (what he has read in his entomological books till now). And of course his own personal experience from his own field collecting/observations (many interesting things about many insect species that he has learned in nature -trust me- are not written in any paper..). |
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Post by Rev. Redmond Farrier on Oct 15, 2011 18:29:27 GMT -8
Wow! And here I thought that this was a friendly, fun forum. This is not what I expected when I started this thread. (remember me? I am the one who had one of his favorite moths eaten by his cat.) Having my thread derailed by a debate on the subject would not have bothered me a bit, but this is no debate. I do not know which side has the correct information and don't really care. Name calling and personal attacks have no place in a debate or in my thread. If you want to continue the argument I would like to request that you do so by starting another thread. I came here to learn and to share my new found hobby with like minded people, not to read through a heated argument to see if anyone actually responded to my original post.
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Post by thanos on Oct 15, 2011 18:56:09 GMT -8
Rev. - you are right. I'm here for the same reasons as you. Don't worry,I personally will not continue to debate with these persons anywhere in this forum. I apologize to you,but I couldn't not reply to the bulls**** and attack of these few certain people( btw,nomihoudai was the one who started calling names once again,not me,as shown above),who eat their spleens about me since the old forum. Ok,enough.Keep enjoying your hobby - I'll do the same .
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Post by wingedwishes on Oct 15, 2011 19:04:42 GMT -8
I think I heard an echo........ Ok guys - take it to another thread. We (myself included) have hijacked too often. Back to the subject matter: Rev - I'm sorry about the cat (I have always been a dog person myself) but I do understand and sympathize. It is a common moth so you should find another soon.
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ckswank
Full Member
Posts: 239
Country: USA
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Post by ckswank on Oct 15, 2011 19:09:33 GMT -8
Hi, Rev. Sorry to hear about your moth. They are generally fairly common in the south & I'm sure you will find another one (although probably next year). I've got a 4 year old grandson living with us & am trying to teach him an appreciation of bugs. Haven't lost any "good" specimens to his inquisitive little hands yet, but have had a few close calls. I tend to agree with your viewpoint on the tone that these threads sometimes take. I do wish it could be a bit more civil. The one thing I have learned as I've gotten older is that when there are two extreme sides to a debate, the answer lies somewhere in the middle. It's up to each of us to figure out where it is. Just my two cents & hope I haven't offended anyone, as that is not my intention.
Charlie from Texas
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Post by africaone on Oct 15, 2011 23:59:23 GMT -8
>> Thanos again and again ... repeating and peddling unfounded rumors (slander in otherwords!) ... You are never tired ?  , for information : about your lactetinctus ! Sorry your Honor, I didn't understand you wished a special answer from me about a subspecies I don't know.... |
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Post by thanos on Oct 16, 2011 1:52:27 GMT -8
About the ssp. busogus van Someren of C.lactetinctus, I've seen a female from Uganda in the illustrated encyclopedia of the butterfly world of Paul Smart, which is identified as ssp. busogus.
Haven't you read anything about this ssp. described by that 'van Someren' ? I don't ask you this to make the 'clever', but just to confirm the existence of this ssp. or not, as I have read it only in this book.
(I will not be again out of your topic,Rev, excuse me once again for this).
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Post by bichos on Oct 16, 2011 4:25:30 GMT -8
Rev;
I do remember finding two nice sphingids in my teenge years.
And still remember the excitement and joy I experienced when I found them, I no longer collect moths and have since thrown them in the bin to make way for my lucanids.
I have had plenty of specimens destroyed through various means, you will surely laugh about it later, and you'll surely get plenty more oportunities to find more of these wonderful moths, regardless of nomenclature;)
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 16, 2011 7:51:16 GMT -8
Bichos,
The argument on page 1 is about taxonomy not nomenclature. This is an important distinction that many people don't understand.
Nomenclature is about naming taxa, taxonomy is about their relationships (such as whether 2 named taxa are the same species or not). Thus the ICZN Code covers ONLY the nomenclature part, zoologists apply the Code in making their taxonomic determinations about which name to use.
Adam.
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Post by Rev. Redmond Farrier on Oct 17, 2011 0:41:10 GMT -8
A spray bottle full of water is working wonders for my cat. She had tried to take some of my insects while I was processing them and each time she she got squirted. After just one day of this, she now approaches the spreading board like she wants something off of it. Then she will sniff of it and run away before I even get the bottle ready.
I can tell that she wants the big grasshopper I just spread really bad, but she refuses to get close enough to it to do any damage. The best thing is that she is not afraid of me like she would be if I were to swat at her when she tries to take one of my bugs.
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Post by bichos on Oct 17, 2011 2:50:25 GMT -8
Bichos, The argument on page 1 is about taxonomy not nomenclature. This is an important distinction that many people don't understand. Nomenclature is about naming taxa, taxonomy is about their relationships (such as whether 2 named taxa are the same species or not). Thus the ICZN Code covers ONLY the nomenclature part, zoologists apply the Code in making their taxonomic determinations about which name to use. Adam. Thanks for the clarification Adam, you can probably guess now why I did not contribute to THAT argument  and Rev you are doing the right thing disasociating your self from the negative reinforcement via the spray bottle. best that I do not coment on your cat any further, since I am not only not a cat person but I am not an furry animal person, cats, dogs I dislike them all equally  |
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Post by starlightcriminal on Oct 17, 2011 5:18:04 GMT -8
Hmm, maybe I should get a spray bottle to shoot myself every time I destroy one of my own specimens, lol. Sorry to hear this happened. My cat likes flowers. My dog flings slobber on everything. I like fuzzies, from cats to dogs to tarantulas. I also like snakes and fish and everything else alive. As such, I have a cabinet that closes which allows to me dry specimens and keep everything else out. I made it from an unfinished pantry I got on sale at Home Depot. I finished it, added a latch and rubber gasket so the door would pull tight and seal and I keep moth balls for extra assurance. Looks like a nice piece of furniture from the outside.
I think you can find more of this moth fairly easily once you find out a bit about it's local biology. Look around for spurge (Portulaca sp.) this time of year, the caterpillars really like the wild forms where I am and can often be found on the ground munching away. They have a pretty fancy skin pattern and so are fairly noticeable as far as caterpillars go. I just raise it and then you have a perfect adult. You will find larvae getting ready to pupate and hide out over the winter. Good luck!
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to see that members that revendicates to be entomologist denied so much the work of so many others recognised specialist ! 
. Btw,I'm still waiting you to visit me,but your 'threats' are too girlish.
If I will read these latest papers(if sometime available somewhere here) ,with molecular and/or genitalial proofs, I will may change my mind. Anyway,you well undestand what I'm writing. And I already dealt a lot with this subject. A nice and rare female of Antheraea montezuma from Mexico is now waiting me in the relaxer to enjoy spreading it. -bb
, 
