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Post by wollastoni on Dec 13, 2011 7:38:57 GMT -8
Totally true.
If "sairga" is reading us, I would also be very much interested in his opinion on this specimen.
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Post by hewi on Dec 13, 2011 14:36:17 GMT -8
btw., there are females of pericles with green colouring on the forewings ...
For me, the most interesting ist that the green is not the brilliant
colour usually seen in phalcidon and less often in pericles but a strange opaque brightly sea-green which I never found neither in pericles nor in phalcidon males and females !
For me its a very interesting but teratological specimen.
I'm rather sure that it is not a mosaic gynander.
With regards, Manfred
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 13, 2011 23:26:04 GMT -8
Thanks Manfred ! So you think like my first opinion, a nice aberration. But it does look like a mosaic form...  |
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Post by thanos on Dec 14, 2011 6:29:34 GMT -8
Manfred, how this specimen could be teratologic ..?
Teratologic is a butterfly with anomalous wingshape,a beetle with a third antenna,etc..
Here we have clearly a mosaic pattern.
As I said above,I don't think,too,that is a gynandromorph, but a male mosaic between 2 forms of Agrias amydon (if finally phalcidon and pericles will be proved with DNA to be the same species), or a strange mosaic hybrid if there is a possibility that they are actually different species. But,cause all hybrids I've seen are intermediate between the 2 crossed species, I rather support the first possibility.
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Post by africaone on Dec 14, 2011 7:48:04 GMT -8
a mosaic hybrid ? I have problem to imagine how it can happens !  except with glue / cisel and a some patience. this is called a chimera ! |
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Post by thanos on Dec 14, 2011 8:39:07 GMT -8
As I said, all the known hybrids are intermediate between the 2 crossed species,and so I don't think that is something like a 'mosaic hybrid', but a male mosaic of 2 forms of the same species. But I don't exclude that extremely rarely (not seen till now) can happen a 'mosaic hybrid' . Why is this possible(the mosaic) to happen between 2 forms of a species, and not possible to happen between 2 different species, africaone ?
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Post by africaone on Dec 14, 2011 9:46:27 GMT -8
knowing how mosaic are made, this seems to be impossible !
(except with chimera making method that obviouly is impossible in nature ! and I don't imagine that actual technic permits a such kind of mosaic and if has ever been tried !)
the specimen showed here has all characters of a mosaic and the question that remains is "of what " ? this question is for Agrias specialist or lovers that know where to look for the pieces of the puzzle.
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 14, 2011 10:10:49 GMT -8
My best guess remains mauensis x phalcidon (if it is possible...). All colors seem to correspond rather well, even the turquoise. Attachments:
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Post by africaone on Dec 14, 2011 10:24:10 GMT -8
yes, this is troubling !
are you sure they are not the same species ? do they live in the same biotopes, etc. ? does exist in collection crossing between the 2 ?
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Post by wollastoni on Dec 14, 2011 10:27:04 GMT -8
About the "same species" I would not dare any conclusions. Hewi and sairga here are the guys who know.
Same biotopes yes, about crossing never seen any but there must be some.
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Post by nomihoudai on Dec 14, 2011 10:38:37 GMT -8
Seems like we have invented hot water right now ( finding knowledge already known) Take a look at Gerardo Lamnas opinion (who is for sure qualified to speakin this matter) on Agrias classification and then you simply see that the above specimen is a regular Agrias amydon phalcidon gynandromorph,... only that male part belonged to orange form and female to the blue form. butterfliesofamerica.com/L/t/Agrias_amydon_phalcidon_a.htm |
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Post by africaone on Dec 14, 2011 11:06:38 GMT -8
that sound better ! thanks Claude.
ps : Thanos's insults doesn't touch me. I don't feel concerned.
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Post by thanos on Dec 14, 2011 11:12:36 GMT -8
I see a lot of photos of many nice variations of Agrias amydon there,most of which already known to me,but I don't see a proof that the specimen of this thread is a gynandromorph. Where is his opinion about this written ?
Also,I'm confused by things like these: He names as f.rebillardi, a male phalcidon fournierae with orange basal forewing patches, while this form is known to have these patches red.
Also,he names as f.viridiflavus a male phalcidon fournierae ,which has no subapical green stripes.. Confusing.
ps: I don't care about this,africaone. I told you what I had about this. Also others,like Perger, told you these in the old forum,and that is not a good thing to be ironic for the work of other entomologists, with your usual 'ritoric ironic questions' and your self-impression that you are 'THE scientist' .
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Post by nomihoudai on Dec 14, 2011 11:23:04 GMT -8
Also,I'm confused by things like these: He names as f.rebillardi, a male phalcidon fournierae with orange basal forewing patches, while this form is known to have these patches red. Also,he names as f.viridiflavus a male phalcidon fournierae ,which has no subapical green stripes.. Confusing. These specimen are the holotypes, maybe, but only MAYBE a single time YOUR opinion has been wrong mr. smartypants and the forms actually do look different of what YOU imagine them to look like. Everytime I think we have seen your self-belief to its fullest you know how to top it (questioning the look of a holotype, PPPFFFFFFFFFF  ). |
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Post by thanos on Dec 14, 2011 11:36:32 GMT -8
You are a great rubbish(this,as you edited the nonsense you wrote about me in your above post) nomihoudai . Post here the opinion of Lamas (and not Lamnas as you wrote) and stop your nonsense.Where is it proved that this is a gynandromorph ? Just from a series of photos of amydon phalcidon and amydon pericles ? Sorry,I didn't know that a holotype can luck absolutely any morphological characteristic of the form it refers to. These 'rebillardi' and 'viridiflavus' there,look like typical phalcidon fournierae.
Oh,I loose my time again with you. I will contact him if need his opinion.
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except with glue / cisel and a some patience. 
).