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Post by panzerman on Jan 15, 2012 13:53:40 GMT -8
This is M+F indra kaibabensis?  John  Attachments:
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Post by panzerman on Jan 15, 2012 13:55:22 GMT -8
Here too compare normal kaibabensis.... John  Attachments:
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Post by Chris Grinter on Jan 15, 2012 15:55:15 GMT -8
Given that they are on the Kaibab plateau it would make them roughly the same population as the ones you photographed as being collected inside the park (eek!), just looks like a bit of variation within that population.
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Post by eurytides on Oct 16, 2014 20:38:49 GMT -8
Hi all! I'm a new member who just joined today after having been around for a few years reading various posts. I'm re-reading some of the older posts now that, as a member, I can see the pictures being posted here. I couldn't help but notice that many of the P. indra above were collected by R. Skalski. Is this the same Mr. Skalski who was charged for collecting illegally in federal preserves many years ago??? www.nytimes.com/1994/12/18/us/2-men-admit-breaking-law-on-butterflies.html |
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Post by mantisboy on Oct 17, 2014 3:40:01 GMT -8
Well, given that one of his major offenses was collecting P. indra kiababensis in the park, especially from Roaring Springs, and selling them, I would say that is likely.
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Post by eurytides on Oct 17, 2014 5:32:17 GMT -8
Okay so pardon my ignorance, but if a person buys specimens which were collected illegally, but they didn't know this was the case.....what happens? Would the feds consider that the buyer broke any laws or can those specimens be confiscated, even though the buyer didn't knowingly do anything wrong?? Like, if I buy some Papilio hermeli which later turn out to be P. chikae (I know Adam will correct me and say they are the same species.....this was just the first hypothetical case that came to mind), have I broken the law??
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Post by nomihoudai on Oct 17, 2014 6:24:44 GMT -8
If I shot a person and I wouldn't know it was illegal, would I go to prison?
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Post by teinopalpus on Oct 17, 2014 7:09:04 GMT -8
I think it is little more complex. Some subspecies of Papilio indra are? protected in US or coming only from protected areas. But this species nor subspecies is not listed in any international list, so buying those specimens f.e. on fair in Europe is absolutly OK. / speaking about laws, not moral /
Many countries has large lists of nationally protected species, but when those leaved that specific country nobody cares.
For example in my country is protected Limenitis populi with heavy fine. If anybody catch me here collecting this species or trying to send it in parcel abroad I will have big problems. But if I will be able to get such specimens to f.e. Japan, in Tokyo nobody cares that species is protected somewhere in one of many european countries.
Only internationally reliable lists of species where trade is prohibited or controlled is CITES.
P.S. John / panzerman / is not living in U.S.
Jan
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Post by mantisboy on Oct 17, 2014 7:30:58 GMT -8
In the US though, things aren't as easy. You could still be fined for the chikae, probably by the Lacey Act. From my understanding, it forbids any insects collected or imported illegally from other countries. If you live in the US, even though it is fairly easy to get away with, I would not recommend that somebody risks it, unless you can buy ones that are already imported and are inside the US. It is a lot less likely that anyone will find out.
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Post by teinopalpus on Oct 17, 2014 8:11:17 GMT -8
Chikae is not good sample. For chikae you can be fined anywhere on world as chikae is CITES 1 apendix species.
But of course I do not know US laws, maybe during import procedure some authorities in US are studying if insects coming from foreign countries are legally collected in country of origin.
Jan
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Post by nomad on Oct 18, 2014 0:46:18 GMT -8
Those specimens are probably in another collection by now  |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 18, 2014 9:37:07 GMT -8
Those specimens are probably in another collection by now Probably in Germany, as John got some German dealers to sell his collection for him. Adam. |
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Post by eurytides on Oct 19, 2014 11:52:48 GMT -8
Well P. indra kaibabensis can be found outside the grounds of the national park right? I mean, if one wanted some, you could probably collect them legally without trespassing! Btw Adam, Xi here, finally joined insectnet!
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