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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 7, 2012 14:04:34 GMT -8
1st Rule of breeding, forget about inbreeding. 2nd Rule of breeding, when something doesn't work out blame it on inbreeding.  In all seriousness, you can probably breed them for several generations with no new blood and nothing will happen. It is always funny to see how upset and worried people are about inbreeding. This may have two causes, the first thing is my rule number 2 where people always claim to have had too much inbreeding when something didn't work out and the other thing may be perhaps religious motifs where this got the connotation of a sin. |
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Post by irisscientist on Feb 7, 2012 14:36:16 GMT -8
In answer to your question I must unfortunately ask another. Do you intend for your specimens to naturally pair, or are you intending to hand pair them? The species concerned is also extremely important. Many species (both Butterfly and Moths) that utilize pheromone compounds for mating will often not naturally in-breed and will therefore require 2 different populations. The reasons for this are obvious, but are not as yet fully unveiled. Some of these issues were raised in Gardiner's "Silkmoth Rearer's Handbook" (1982) and have been encountered by many others (both before and after). If you are intending to hand pair your butterflies however this becomes much less of an issue and the longevity of your population (as God implies in his prior post), may subsequently depend on the number of generations produced.
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Post by irisscientist on Feb 7, 2012 16:20:14 GMT -8
Please be very careful. I have not researched any of the species mentioned in New Zealand, but please be aware of the consequence of the release any non-native species into the wild within your country/county. Although your intentions may be ones of good intention, please be aware that in many countries the release of any unauthorised species into the wild may carry severe consequences and even custodial sentences.
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Post by Chris Grinter on Feb 7, 2012 16:41:16 GMT -8
I would strongly encourage you to NOT to release non-native species! It is a terrible idea, why would you want to establish a local population? Many of the worst invasive species have come from "domestic" stock - look at the giant pythons in the everglades. The ecological impact of such decisions are impossible to gauge- and what seems innocent may end in 10 years with Danaus chrysippus out competing native butterflies (and as irisscientist mentions, possible severe legal and financial consequences for yourself).
Everyone, please breed your insects indoors and never release them! Even if you are breeding native species you probably have some exotics and you could introduce foreign parasites or diseases.
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Post by Zacatak on Feb 7, 2012 17:15:48 GMT -8
that is very true, i dont have the species as stated, i only asked if it was possible. but if i happen to have them in future, i wouldnt release them into the wild due to that reason.
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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 7, 2012 23:43:28 GMT -8
Why are people talking about releasing the non native species into the wild ?? Zac didn't mention anything about that... Here in Europe we breed hundreds of species each year and I can't think of a single butterfly species that escaped trough private hands. There is non native species here like Samia and Antheraea yamamai but they have been released on purpose by industry. Also Cacyreus marshalli got introduced by flower imports like a few other species and not by breeders.
Of course you should keep your species only in cages Zac but I guess tha can't be that much of a hard task to do.
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Post by Zacatak on Feb 8, 2012 1:02:49 GMT -8
Thank you Claude, yes i was only asking is it possible because i have wondered that question allot. its come up very often and i never thought about it before. the original question: if i ever got a specimen from another country that got wind blown here. would it be able to keep repopulating, keep the same bloodline going? as i know that the monarch Danaus plexippus was introduced to this country, i heard it become introduced from a single butterfly that found its way from America and that's how it started here. i could be wrong but that's what i have heard. we have Danaus chrysippus petilia that does arrive here most years on the wind currents from Australia. and it has breed here before many times. i just don't know if it can survive our winters. if this species was to be established it wouldn't harm the nz species or compete with them...the monarch Danaus plexippus was introduced and it has no effect on the native species..and the Danaus chrysippus petilia is so similar to Danaus plexippus (they even breed on the same milkweed) that it wouldn't change the scales of nature. i was asking the question if i ever did happen to have this species breed in captivity - would i be able to keep the bloodline going from a single specimen???..that's the question that's being asked here
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Post by Zacatak on Feb 8, 2012 1:27:06 GMT -8
the fact Danaus chrysippus petilia is always arriving in this country by wind currents every year, some years in the hundreds. means that eventually it will establish itself here. the question is when? i have had a few friends that have had this butterfly just wanderer in;) (funny cause this species nickname is lesser wanderer) to their backyards and laid some eggs on their milkweed...its gonna happen even if they escape from private breeders or not. and this is not a invasive species..it is just the same as Danaus plexippus which is common here and doesn't effect native butterflies. having its smaller cousin Danaus chrysippus petilia just means more joy for butterfly watchers here in nz because we only have around 20 species...i only see 4 species every summer from where i live..and that's poor we could do with more, i wish we had more!
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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 8, 2012 1:59:27 GMT -8
There is more to a species than only bloodline when it wants to establish. Maybe the Danaus chrysippus petilia has been regularly blown over to NZ by wind but could not establish as it was in food competition or any other competition with another species or weather conditions. Of course this is just a guess as I am not an expert in this but at least the idea doesn't sound pulled from too far away.
When a butterfly finds suitable ecological surroundings it may establish. Here in Europe we have and have had populations of Vanessa virginiensis in Canary Islands and Portugal. The species is native to North America and gets blown over Atlantic by wind. The populations regularly build up and die off again as the climate is not a 100% appropriate for the species.
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Post by Zacatak on Feb 8, 2012 3:35:10 GMT -8
but do you think that a species can survive to keep producing generations healthily? like if they were to start breeding from a single batch of eggs, do you think that generation can keep the line going healthy without being wiped out by the same gene pool? if you understand what im saying..or is this whole weaken inbreeding idea just a idea gone too far?!?
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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 8, 2012 4:07:35 GMT -8
How much time are we talking about? 1000 years ? -> no,... 2 or 3 generations that you breed in a cage, why not ?
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Post by bluemoth on Feb 8, 2012 12:40:36 GMT -8
Inbreeding A line of any lep is not a sin or agenst religon. I do this with my Buckeyes.
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Post by Zacatak on Feb 8, 2012 13:21:27 GMT -8
thanks for asking my question. at least i know now that i could get a few generations out of a pair. and no its not a sin, animals a different then humans all together, many animals inbreed even in the wild, sin only plays part to man, its stupid to feel guilty for breeding animals from the same bloodline. they do it with dogs and cats why feel its a sin when god put those laws for humans not animals lol
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