dj
Junior Member
Posts: 34
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Post by dj on Mar 15, 2012 11:42:26 GMT -8
This is the pic I got a couple of years ago, as you can see it is a lot smaller, only twice the size of a normal Dandelion. Is this the one you are interested in? Attachments:
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Post by thanos on Mar 15, 2012 12:46:07 GMT -8
I already saw this on your site and have identified it for you in my previous list in the other post : no,this is not Saturnia spini, but Saturnia pavoniella (female). I'm interested in this species,too, but have collected already a series in N.Greece. This that I miss mostly is the spini. S.spini is very similar to this (to pavoniella,and to the too similar pavonia) both in patterns,colours and size ,with the difference that both sexes of spini are grey and nocturnal (fly only at night), while the sexes of pavoniella and pavonia are different (males are smaller and brown/yellowish and females grey) and only the females are nocturnal (males fly in mid-afternoon). Below on the link are shown both sexes of Saturnia spini and also useful info on the species (please compare with your S.pavoniella female above,although quite similar,there are differences if check carefully). The pair of spini I have in my collection from Bulgaria is from Sandanksi. Best period to look for the species is mid-April to mid-May, at lights on nights with sweet weather : as you already found S.pavoniella where you live (I guess in countryside) ,you could find spini,too , if you have strong lights (or put for catching  ) at your garden. tpittaway.tripod.com/silk/s_spi.htm |
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Post by bartekgoldyn on Mar 16, 2012 1:18:56 GMT -8
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Post by thanos on Mar 16, 2012 10:09:05 GMT -8
I already knew these suggested hindwing differences between pavonia and pavoniella. I'm still not 100% sure for the ID of specimens I've collected here in Greece, neither for the above Bulgarian female. The exact distribution of the 2 species is not known, and there is in many places high evidence of hybridization. Specimens I've collected in N.Greece (both males and females) seem intermediate (in these hindwing patterns),however some others seem to be pavoniella or pavonia according to these hindwing characters. In some specimens I've collected, the hindwing scalloped post median line has direction neither exactly to the anal angle, nor to the inner margin, but intermediately, and also the hindwing discal line has various shape. Hybridization is possible. Specifically for Bulgaria, there is a very recent work (2011) on the 2 species ,this paper by B.Zlatkov of the Sofia University, according to which, most possibly in Bulgaria occurs only S.pavoniella. I'm not sure about this, and possibly pavonia occurs in Bulgaria,too, (less than pavoniella) and the 2 hybridize. For Greece, I think,too,that both species occur (according to my collecting results in N. and C.Greece and examination of the specimens) and that they hybridize. ON SATURNIA PAVONIA (LINNAEUS, 1758) AND SATURNIA PAVONIELLA (SCOPOLI, 1763) (LEP.: SATURNIIDAE) BOYAN ZLATKOV Sofia University “St. Kliment Ohridski”, Faculty of Biology, 8 Dragan Tsankov Blvd., BG-1164 Sofia, Bulgaria (E-mail: bzlatkov@gmail.com) Abstract Four taxa belonging to subgenus Saturnia (Eudia) Jordan in Seitz, 1911 are reported for the Bulgarian fauna. S. (E.) pavonia (Linnaeus, 1758), S. (E.) pavonia ligurica (Weismann, 1876) and S. (E.) pavoniella (Scopoli, 1763) are the subjects of this study. Most Bulgarian reports refer to S. (E.) pavonia. After careful examination of all specimens preserved in the collection of the National Natural History Museum and several other collections containing Bulgarian specimens, it was found that all individuals belong to S. (E.) pavoniella and that S. (E.) pavonia does not occur in Bulgaria. Evidence for hybridisation between the two species was established on several occasions. www.entrecord.com/abstracts11.htmThanos |
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Post by thanos on Mar 16, 2012 15:09:47 GMT -8
Hm.., I spotted a key, which seems to be reliable for the separation of the 2 species.. : On hindwings, the post median and discal lines in the spaces S1a-S1b-S1, in pavonia are parallel, while in pavoniella not... I checked this key on all my Greek specimens, and all seem to be pavoniella according to this !! Also, on the above Bulgarian female these lines are clearly not parallel in S1a-S1b-S1 ! Thus it's pavoniella.. SO, combining these with the results of the above paper that all the examined Bulgarian specimens were pavoniella..,and the fact that Bulgaria and Greece are close, it is most possible that in both countries occurs only pavoniella. I can't exclude the possibility of pavonia 's existence and a hybridization in these countries, but then pavonia has to be very rare here, as I really (just checked this key on all my Greek specimens carefully) didn't find a single specimen I've collected with parallel the post median and discal lines in S1a-S1b-S1 of hindwings ! (Here to mention that there is also the case,but rarely, where a specimen can look like pavoniella externally,but to have genitalial morphology of pavonia..This can happen by introgression(gene transfer from pavoniella to pavonia) caused by hybridization,in the areas where the 2 species locally overlap : the F1 hybrid females are infertile,but possibly few hybrid males are fertile(although most are infertile),mate with the pavonia females,and introgression happens). Check especially the photos 3 and 4 on the link below : www.lepiforum.de/lepidopterenforum/forum/bilderraetsel/loesung_004.htmAnd also these drawings below (left pavonia,right pavoniella) . Dj, your female is most possibly pavoniella, as I firstly told you  ! This key seems to be reliable and so all specimens I've collected here are pavoniella finally - I'm glad that I made it clear to myself at last , - I was not sure till now. Thanos Note: In the recent lists of Lepidoptera of Bulgaria and Greece (they can be seen on wikipedia) are given for both countries the same 5 Saturniidae species (Perisomena caesigena,Aglia tau,Saturnia pyri,Saturnia spini,Saturnia pavoniella, -not pavonia). Attachments:
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Post by oehlkew on Oct 13, 2012 17:29:19 GMT -8
I agree with Thanos that your moth is Saturnia pavoniella. Can you provide a location in Bulgaria for the moth in the photo? I am updating my Bulgaria page and am putting locations on the map. I just recently put one there for Vlahi at base of Pirin Mtns.
I also wish permission to post your image, credited to you, on both the pavoniella file and on the Bulgaria page??
Bill Oehlke at oehlkew@islandtelecom.com
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) at your garden.
! This key seems to be reliable and so all specimens I've collected here are pavoniella finally - I'm glad that I made it clear to myself at last , - I was not sure till now.
