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Post by lepidofrance on Sept 9, 2012 12:55:20 GMT -8
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 9, 2012 13:16:02 GMT -8
Where is it from? Luzon = chikae, Mindoro = hermeli.
Indeed the SUBSPECIES (red rag to Thanos here ;-) ) are distinguished by the underside, but the wingshape could well be due to it being a 'spring form' specimen.
Our biogeographical paper on the results of Achillides DNA studies has now been published in the journal Cladistics, at least online with the print edition due out later this year. I can send a pdf if anyone wants one, but it is 6MB. Interestingly we found that hermeli is sister to Papilio dialis. We were unable to analyse true chikae due to the CITES problem, and we also could not obtain DNA of P. buddha and P. elephenor. Apart from these 3 taxa we analysed both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA of all the remaining species and many subspecies. A further paper will be published in the near future discussing the taxonomic implications of our findings.
Adam.
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Post by saturniidave on Sept 9, 2012 16:48:31 GMT -8
Adam, I can send a leg of buddha and elephenor if you want. They are very old though so I don't know how viable the DNA would be.
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Post by wollastoni on Sept 10, 2012 1:06:22 GMT -8
Dangerous topic...  Adam < it's another example of how stupid CITES regulation for butterflies is. It's a real shame you could not legally receive one specimen of ssp. chikae for study ! |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 10, 2012 13:33:58 GMT -8
Adam, I can send a leg of buddha and elephenor if you want. They are very old though so I don't know how viable the DNA would be. Dave, We already tried to get DNA from a leg of your old male elephenor (thanks for sending it to us) and also some legs of my own old buddha without success. One of my fellow researchers is now based in Bangalore, and hopefully will obtain permission to collect a leg from a live elephenor soon. Obtaining legs of P. buddha will probably be much easier, as it's not really that rare in its habitat. Almost certainly P. buddha is the sister of palinurus (interestingly crino does not belong in the palinurus group at all), and will have no effect on the tree topography, but it is quite possible that once elephenor is done there could be even better resolution of the tree than we obtained in this study. Adam. |
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Post by thanos on Sept 10, 2012 22:28:59 GMT -8
Dangerous ? Why ? I'm the most calm person in the world . Nice specimen nzwings, just when you receive it, check the underside of the forewings if they have extesive white scales - then it's hermeli. Adam, with all respect to you as a person and Papilionidae authority, I'd like to make you a question: How you can be sure that these 2 are the same species, as DNA analysis of a scientifically safe number of specimens of chikae hasn't been done and is not possible to be done due to Cites (neither, due to this, cross-breeding experimens to see if the offspring is viable). Also, I have in my mind some other things: Are the chromosome number and karyotypes of both taxa known, have they been compared and found to be too similar ? There are species (for example Agrodiaetus aroaniensis and the very recently described A. eleniae from Greece) which have (almost) identical morphology in all external characters (even more identical than the 2 Achillides), identical genitalia (like the 2 Achillides), they are not sympatric (again like the 2 Achillides), but -according to the authors of eleniae (and I checked this myself reading the original description)- they have different chromosome number (quite significant difference according to the authors) and karyotypes. Thanos |
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Post by africaone on Sept 10, 2012 22:41:08 GMT -8
hermeli group has been barcoded (see BOLD site) those that have access to the datas know the results (I am not). In the public info accessible, there are clearly two groups well separated (unfortunetly datas of specimens are cancelled  ) |
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Post by thanos on Sept 10, 2012 22:56:46 GMT -8
I had checked on BOLD site the DNA sequences of hermeli (a quite good number of specimens barcoded, but available were the sequences of only a few of them). Only 1 specimen of chikae was barcoded and the sequence not available. There were some differences between the sequences of hermeli. Since then I haven't checked again.
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Post by africaone on Sept 10, 2012 23:14:17 GMT -8
may be some hermeli indicated as hermeli are not 
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Post by wollastoni on Sept 10, 2012 23:28:06 GMT -8
About chromosome numbers, they could be different even within the same species.
It is well known for some Polyommatus species.
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Post by thanos on Sept 11, 2012 7:09:39 GMT -8
'may be some hermeli indicated as hermeli are not '
- I thought this, too.
'About chromosome numbers, they could be different even within the same species.'
- Yes, even the DNA sequences can be slightly different between 2 individuals of the same species, but if a significant difference in the chromosome number is accompanied by different karyotype, then we have different species. Also, we can have 2 different species with different karyotype and about equal chromosome number. Both must be checked (and combined also with the external characters).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2012 7:26:47 GMT -8
NZ WINGS, as Adam said, you will know for sure when the specimen arrives whether it is hermeli or chikae by examining the undersides but having been around these 2 species as much as I have, from the picture you posted it is 99% certain to be a male summer brrod chikae, post a pic of the underside when it arrives.
Dunc
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 11, 2012 8:07:33 GMT -8
Even Papilio machaon has different chromosome numbers in some populations; such differences don't prove much at all, sorry to disappoint you.
Adam.
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Post by thanos on Sept 11, 2012 8:30:16 GMT -8
Well, here is FOR SURE a spring generation male of chikae. I find it identical to the above specimen, so I agree with Dunc that nzwings, your male must be chikae. I'd be interested to see the collecting data when you receive it and if it's genuine. (A detail on wingshape: the lobe on V1b of HW of hermeli is quite better defined than the one of chikae). PS: Adam, you didn't exactly answer my question, but it's your right . Attachments:
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Post by thanos on Sept 11, 2012 8:33:30 GMT -8
and the underside Attachments:
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