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cocoons
Jan 29, 2011 19:17:38 GMT -8
Post by mnmadmoth on Jan 29, 2011 19:17:38 GMT -8
Looking to buy specifically North Amercican luna cocoons, preferably from Minnesota. My friend purchased some last year and they emerged to soon when there wasn't food source yet. Does anyone refregerate the cocoons in May if it's to warm and no host food?
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cocoons
Feb 5, 2011 19:43:45 GMT -8
Post by papilio28570 on Feb 5, 2011 19:43:45 GMT -8
Best to get cocoons that are acclimated to your area to avoid problems in general. Yes you can refrigerate them but remember to spray them with water occasionally.
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cocoons
Feb 6, 2011 21:14:36 GMT -8
Post by oehlkew on Feb 6, 2011 21:14:36 GMT -8
I have been rearing North American Saturniidae for many years. Here on PEI in eastern Canada, where all Saturniidae species are single brooded, except for Dryocampa rubicunda which sometimes tries a second brood, I over winter my breeding stock in sandwich sized plastic storage tubs. I use Gladware here, which is similar to Tupperware. I put the cocoons in the tubs (lids on tight, no air holes) in October and set them in one of the crispers in my refrigerator and leave them there until I see the first cabbage white butterfly in the spring, usually around Mothers' Day. Then I begin taking cocoons out of the cold storage containers, usually two or three one day, none the next, and then two or three on the third day, none the next and so on until I have taken all out of cold storage before the end of May. I then have regular eclosions starting in early June and lasting into late June and early July, in sync with the flights of local populations. I do not put any moisture in with cocoons. Almost every year I have close to 100% eclosions, and generally have good success getting pairings with wild males. If I want to pop a few early, I put them in a spare bedroom with an electric space heater and crank up the heat to about 85 F. It works for me and I do not mist them. If I am storing naked pupae (rubicunda, virginiensis, or local Sphingidae or butterflies), I put a paper towel in bottm of same type storage tub, moisten it with literally no more than two drips of water and let the naked pupae rest on top of the paper towel, lid on tight, again stored in crisper part of refrigerator, where a normal person would keep lettuce, cabbage, and other leafy vegetables from wilting. If you want to lightly mist the cocoons once when you put them in the containers, that likely would not hurt, but it might encourage some mold on the outside of the cocoons.
Bill Oehlke
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cocoons
Feb 8, 2011 20:43:11 GMT -8
Post by papilio28570 on Feb 8, 2011 20:43:11 GMT -8
Very detailed, Bill. I had not considered placing them in a sealed container for that length of time.
I only rear local USA livestock rather than purchase the same species from outside the area, and I leave them outside to overwinter in my large rearing cages. One cage is 4 feet by 8 feet and 8 feet tall.
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Post by oehlkew on Feb 9, 2011 4:21:55 GMT -8
If your rearing cage gets some shade, as the cocoons in the wild would, then the moths should emerge in sync with some of the wild flight. If your cage, however, gets full sun most of the time, due to its location, or acts like some kind of a heat trap, then your moths may emerge ahead of the local flight. In the wild, cocoons that are in relative close proximity (within a couple of miles of each other) will experience different amounts of sunlight and warmth in the spring. Some will be under fallen leaves or even snow, some will not; some will be on the south side of a tree in a relatively clear area; some will be on the north side of a tree deeper in the woods, etc., etc. Hence your wild cocoons will emerge on different dates, despite their proximity because of the amount of warmth they experience. I suspect that cocoons in a cage such as you have described will yield moths within a very short time span from the first emergence of a moth of one species to the last emergence of a moth of the same species. The fridge crisper technique works for me, and allows for setting out mating cages over a much more extended flight season. It also gives me a good idea as to the duration of the wild flight. Our spring weather here fluctuates greatly and we tend to get much rain. I can have females emerge in a warm period and then see the temperature drop considerably for the next several days or we can have periods of very heavy rains for several nights in a row. It is therefore very useful for me to have females out a various times, still in sync with the natural flight. Bill Oehlke
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cocoons
Feb 9, 2011 18:15:58 GMT -8
Post by papilio28570 on Feb 9, 2011 18:15:58 GMT -8
Good points, Bill, but my experience is quite different than your prediction. Even though all ova were provided on the same day, pupation is staggered out over a period of several weeks. Eclosion, whether spring or summer brood is also over several weeks and some skip eclosion for a generation.
Skipped generation eclosion is not as common during first breeding, but when offspring are held for second breeding with siblings, about half the cocoons skip a generation. I believe this is a way nature has of spreading the genes more thinly so as not to polute a local race with too much inbreeding.
Anyway, my cages are in dappled shade under a thicket of several 30 ft tall American Holly. It is sheltered on all sides by tall shrubs and trees. It keeps them cool in the summer yet some thinning of the overhead and border growth allows the winter southern sun to penetrate without overpowering.
Like you, been at it for more decades than I like to count.
Bob
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cocoons
Feb 10, 2011 21:03:53 GMT -8
Post by oehlkew on Feb 10, 2011 21:03:53 GMT -8
It is always interesting to read rearing accounts from others. I am surprised (not disputing your account, just surprised by it) that you get pupation over several weeks from eggs deposited on same date. Here my larvae from eggs from the same female on the same date usually spin up within just a few days of each other, but I am rearing them in very large sleeves so they are essentially experiencing the same conditions. I would imagine, however, that just as pupal development depends upon warmth and sunlight, larval development would depend on same items, so in wild, or under different rearing conditions, eggs from same female, deposited on same date, would develop at different rates due to warmth (sun or shade), and possibly based on foodplant, or maybe just a gene pool that supports varied development. In New Jersey, where I grew up as a boy, if there was a long cool spring, followed by a cool summer, sometimes we would only see a single brood of lunas that year. Usually there were two broods each year. If we had an early warm spring, and a warm summer, sometimes there would be a partial third brood of lunas, whereby some larvae which spun up on same date under same conditions would continue development in pupal stage and emerge within two to three weeks, sometimes when it was obvious that there was no time for offspring to mature before onset of cold weather, while other pupae would overwinter. During each of the last two summers here on PEI I have reared 500-600 polyphemus to cocoon stage. Each fall about two or three moths emerge in September early October (not possible here for their offspring to mature), but the others overwinter. So far, lunas reared here under same conditions and in same time frame as the polyphemus have not produced any adults in the fall. When I harvest the cocoons (usually mid August early September), I bring them indoors where average temp stays around 65-70. I don't put them in cold storage until near end of October. I don't have much experience with offspring from sibling pairings as it is relatively easy for me to get pairings with wild males. I do get many reports and digital images from people who have found a polyphemus or luna caterpillar or cocoon at a time and in a state or province where the pupae of those species would normally overwinter. The people have looked at the cocoon and then put it in a box or jar on the shelf in the warmth of the house. I usually get the email from them when they discover the moth flying around in the house in late January early February when it is cold outside with no foliage on the trees, and there is snow on the ground. My interpretation has been that the increasing photo period starting December 21-22??, coupled with the warmth causes the pupae to break diapause and begin to develop. In another forum on Clark's site there is report of wild euryalus turnig up at a light in Santa Cruz County, California, just the other day. Poster said it has been warm there this spring. Usually the reports for central California euryalus flights start to arrive mid March into April, and from northen California they begin to fly in May-June. There is still much to learn about these insects. Bill Oehlke
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cocoons
Feb 13, 2011 23:30:15 GMT -8
Post by bigwhitmer on Feb 13, 2011 23:30:15 GMT -8
I keep all my naked pupae in containers as Bill describes. Since I started doing it, I try to mist them every 2 weeks. I had not done it this winter but this thread reminded me. Ended up throwing out 3 imperials that hold mold.
All my cocoons and butterfly chrysalises are kept in aquariums in an unheated detached building. Been doing it that way since the early '70s (did have an attached unheated garage for 2 years but no problems either). Moths are cecropias, polyphemus and luna. Eclosions will stagger over a period of weeks.
Last year (no lunas last year): Poly first eclosion 4/23 first mating with wild male 5/2 last eclosion 6/17 I don't track 1st/2nd brood (except total #s) so I don't have info on which brood came out when - all have common ancestor from 2005 maybe - not gonna dig out that paperwork
cecropia bloodline one - common ancestor circa 1996 first eclosion 5/18 last eclosion 6/24
bloodline two - common ancestor circa 2003 first eclosion 5/20 last eclosion 6/22
Had an oddball eclose on 7/14 - was raised at my son's school but spent the winter with me
first mating with wild male 5/21
I'm located in central Ohio. And when I say wild males, I mean they definitely are not any of the ones I released.
Story about last year 2nd brood polys: All my polys now are of a more recent ancestor, a wild female that my son's friend found crawling around sometime summer 2009. After it eclosed spring 2010, it was brought it over to my house and a wild male showed up. A couple months later, I gave the friends' mom about 20 2nd brood eggs which she raised. Their aquarium was in her family room. She is a night owl and rarely turns off the lights before 2:30 am. All her polys eclosed last fall and central Ohio does not do 3rd brood. So I learned don't give 2nd brood polys too much artificial light.
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cocoons
Feb 27, 2011 10:44:37 GMT -8
Post by trembo3578 on Feb 27, 2011 10:44:37 GMT -8
Bill,
While I have no doubt that heat and sunlight may play a roll in the eclosion time of the moths, I think that individual characteristic between each moth probably has the biggest impact.
A few years ago I rasied a group of imperial moths from egg to adulthood. The eggs all hatced the same day. The larva all grew up in the same rearing cage inside my house, and pupated within a few days of each other. I put them all in the fridge on the same day in the fall, and removed them all on the same day in the spring. They were all transfered to the same container i had for eclosion but hatched very differently. Even though they had all pupated within a few days of eachother and were exposed to basically the exact same conditions since that time, there was about a 3 week span of eclosions.
The same thing happened with a group of Lunas I raised too except there was no refridgeration. They all spun up and pupated within a couple of days of eachother, but their eclosion times were spread out over more than a week, even when the rest of the conditions remained the same for them.
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cocoons
Feb 27, 2011 17:27:40 GMT -8
Post by oehlkew on Feb 27, 2011 17:27:40 GMT -8
Yes, I have definitely observed that smaller pupae tend to develop faster than larger pupae, and the smaller pupae tend to be the males. Many people have also reported bimodal emergence peaks about two weeks apart, I think most notably for promethea and cecropia in North America. So it would be very interesting to understand what determines the prolonged emergence window that some are observing. I would very much like to receive and store detailed reports with actual species and dates recorded to see if any kind of pattern seems evident. I think I will have excess polyphemus cocoons available this spring so I will continue to stager the times out of cold storage as I have in the past, but I wil also take a relatively large number out on the same date (maybe two different dates) weigh the cocoons in advance, treat them all and document what emerges and when. Maybe it all comes down to individual differences, but differences none-the-less. It might be difficult to determine any obvious differences, but there must be a mechanism for what is being observed.
Bill Oehlke
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cocoons
Feb 27, 2011 22:33:34 GMT -8
Post by trembo3578 on Feb 27, 2011 22:33:34 GMT -8
I definitely think record keeping would be a really neat thing to do. Especially because you have so many moths to yeild plenty of data. I was actually planning on doing the same thing myself this year and making graphs in excel to be able to see the distributions of eclosions for the 25 promethea cocoons I have.
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