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Post by nomad on Jan 20, 2013 13:10:25 GMT -8
The last word in the last but one row seems to be Constantinhafen, mostly written Konstantinhafen, today called Erimba in Madang Province, Astrolabe Bay. So the text at end of the label says "caught by a Boy in Constantinhafen". Hannes Hannes the information on the type male was very interesting. Sorry it was the female that was later found in the Finisterre mountains. Both the male and female types were collected by Wahnes Peter.
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Post by froggy on Jan 20, 2013 13:26:22 GMT -8
Sismog and Nomad,
Thanks you for all the additional info and the continued research on this. Astrolabe bay for the male type seem like a very possible location and the fact that this specimen was apparently caught by a servant is so worthwhile to know. I just love the way history, geography, technology and human interest intermingle in this story. In spite of being in a bit of a sorry state (I think it is nevertheless invaluable), this specimen continues to have a story to tell... Many thanks, Thierry
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 20, 2013 13:30:01 GMT -8
Anyone at all can name a new species or subspecies, as long as they do so in a way that conforms to the ICZN Code. Whether other people agree with the new names being worthy of species or subspecies status is another issue entirely. The names (assuming they were correctly published in such a way as to make them available under the Code) will subsequently be assessed by authors who work on them, and decide whether they are worthy of the status originally given to them, or synonymised with previously named taxa. Of course this is generally subjective, and subsequent authors may decide to treat them as separate taxa once more.
On the other hand naming forms really has no scientific purpose, as form names are infrasubspecific and not considered valid under the Code. The only use they have is as a label for people to use informally. In reality you may as well post a picture here on the Insectnet forum and say I want to call this form xxx. If you were to go to all the effort of publishing a paper in a Code compliant way the form names in it would have no status, so why bother?
I find it very funny that there are still well known authors publishing form names complete with 'holotype' designation etc. In fact Deslisle & Sclavo published just such a paper in Lambillionea last year, naming two new local forms and six new individual forms of O. paradisea. If someone subsequently describes the same 'local forms' as subspecies giving them new names, the Deslisle and Sclavo names would not have priority as published first, since they are not Code compliant, and so have no scientific validity. On the other hand Deslisle & Sclavo, 2012 does have scientific value in the information and illustrations which add to our knowledge of Ornithoptera paradisea. The paper is valuable in that respect, but they may as well not have bothered giving them form names.
Adam.
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Post by nomad on Jan 20, 2013 13:54:53 GMT -8
Adam
Thank you for your information. I find what you have explained very interesting. There is an increasing number of named Ornithoptera forms and subspecies. Deslisle gives only three subspecies of O. paradisea but I find it quite remarkable that he is going to name a further eight forms.
Peter.
P.S. If the Deslisle paper arrives on the internet would you please put a link for it. I should very much like to read the article.
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Post by nomad on Jan 20, 2013 23:15:50 GMT -8
Hannes
I have been giving more thoughts to the O paradisea paradisea type locality, Astrolabe Bay. I believe the male type was taken by the German collector Wahnes around 1892. It is interesting to note that Meek took a specimen at Astrolabe Bay in 1913. I believe there was a good population here and many historical specimens came from that locality. It is probably extinct there now. However I see no reason why this species should not still occur in the rugged area of the Finisterre mountains. It is very surprising that there is no information on the current status of O. paradisea in Papua.
Peter.
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 21, 2013 1:35:08 GMT -8
AFAIK very few entomological surveys has been done in those Finesterre Mountains... must be plenty of interesting leps there.
I would be more confident than you on the situation of paradisea in Astrolabe Bay. Ornitho are able to survive even in cultivated area (except palm oil fields I guess)... unfortunately most of Papuan Delias are not...
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Post by nomad on Jan 21, 2013 13:39:10 GMT -8
I am not sure what the Primary or secondary forest situation is around Madang- Astrolabe bay but there has been no records of O. paradisea from that area for a very long time. I believe O. paradisea is usually found in Primary forest. The Finisterre Mountains would be a exciting area to visit, perhaps even some new Delias species there. I am going to collect common Delias species first and work up. A few on the boards soon. Looking forward to the bug fairs this year and getting some good Delias.
I believe the naming of Ornithoptera infrasubspecfic forms has some use by helping those that study or collect these insects and will help them distinguish the different geographical forms that are deemed unworthy of full species or subspecies status.
There certainly has been much disagreement by specialists and authors who have published on the Ornithoptera group. In his' Birdwing Butterflies of the world' [1975,2001] Bernard d' Abrera raised a number of Ornithoptera to specific rank. These were O. priamus caelestis, O. priamus richmondia, O. priamus euphorion and O. paradisea arfakensis. I wonder how many of you accept this revision. A number of Entomologists now believe that O. paradisea arfakensis and O. priamus richmondia are good species and in this I would agree. Do you?
Every author that has published on O. paradisea has taken a different view with which names to accept. Three major and ground-breaking publications are mentioned here. In a' Monograph of the Birdwing Butterflies'[1978] Haugum and Low show four subspecies[ paradisea, arfakensis,flavescens and a new subspecies borchi] with three possible others but then a number of subspecies are still yet to be discovered. Haugum and Low have seen photographs of the new subspecies O. paradisea chrysanthemum [Kobayashi and Koiwaya 1979] and mention the very distinct female and also refer to the male as synonymous with the male of O. p arfakensis?? and decline to show this very distinct taxon as a subspecies in their monograph. Hirotaka Matsuka in ' A Natural History of Birdwing Butterflies' [2001] shows eight subspecies [paradisea,arfakensis, flavescens,borchi, demeter, galatea,occidentalis,chrysanthemum. Bernard d, Abrera in Birdwing Butterflies of the World '[2003] shows 4 subspecies [paradisea,flavescens, demeter, chrysanthemum and raises O. paradisea arfakensis to specific rank with two subspecies occidentalis, galatea. Abrera believes subspecies borchi to be synonymous with O. paradisea paradisea.
Which of the above Birdwing books is best? In my opinion Haugum and Lows monumental monograph would be hard to beat for the very detailed and concise information contained in the text. Abrera book [the 2003 edition] has superb plates with many Types of the unparalleled collection of the BMNH. Even though they were then quite well known, colour plates of several very interesting Taxon are missing in the Abrera book probably because specimens were not held in the British Museum collections at the time when the author was producing his volume. The Matsuka book is obviously a great labour of love and my favourite book with many beautiful colour plates, beautiful images of the live butterflies which were all photographed by the Author. All the early stages are shown in glorious colour. Detailed maps showing known Birdwing localities. WOW what a book.
Peter.
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Post by nomihoudai on Jan 21, 2013 13:53:05 GMT -8
May I ask why you would do so, just out of interest?
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Post by nomad on Jan 22, 2013 3:24:27 GMT -8
Nomihoudai
I have already outlined why I believe O. paradisea arfakensis to be a good species in my answer to Thierry. Here are some of them again. For me O. arfakensis [ as I would call the butterfly] shows a distinct set of constant characters in the adult especially in the male. This together with its very different larva make O. arfakensis a strong case for this taxon being elevated to specific rank. The male of O. arfakensis has a highly modified forewing and hindwing wing shape with the complete black tail etc. Three other paradisea subspecies occur with O. arfakensis on the Doborai [ Bird's Head] Peninsular. Two of these galatea and occidentalis are clearly close affinities of O. arfakenis and in my opinion they are best regarded as probable subspecies of that species. However O. paradisea chysanthemum seems to be a very different matter and seems similar to the other O. paradisea subspecies found elsewhere in New Guinea. Earlier I stated that B. d' Abrera thought O. paradisea chrysanthemum was sympatric with O. arfakensis but I thought this might not be the case. Most of the recent specimens come from Manokwari on the North side of the Arfak mountains. However B. d. Abrera appears to be right and they do indeed fly together in the Eastern Arfak at Memti. If this is the case this would be another good reason for the separation of O. arfakensis A good question for me, is how many different reasons are there needed for O. arfakensis to be considered a bona fide species.
As you know many authors have regarded O. richmondia as a good species. some of these have seen or studied the butterfly in the wild. Gray [1853] Common, Waterhouse[1981] Hancock[1983] Parsons[1996] Abrera [1975,2003] Jan Paternak [2000]etc.
There is much argument, which seems to be Common when discussing Ornithoptera, as to whether O. Richmondia should be consider a good species or left as a subspecies of O. priamus. I personally agree with the authors above that it is probably a good species. Even Zeuner thought that on account of its very different gentalia it might need rasing to specific rank but left it as a subspecies of O. priamus. I believe its extreme isolation [400 miles] from other priamus forms. The very different gentalia. Its constant size. Its different early stages with its remarkable green pupa unlike no other. I know there are colour variations in the pupa of other Ornithoptera but none of these seem to even remotely approach that of O. richmondia. I believe these and other factors warrant regarding O. richmondia as a good species.
I believe there has been pairing [Hand?] of O. richmondia and O. priamus euphorion and these are supposed to had a successive off spring. They however could never breed naturally in the wild.
Peter.
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 22, 2013 3:57:27 GMT -8
I would just add that "Manokwari" on a label just means "Arfak". 99% of Arfak specimens are labelled Manokwari even those that don't come from Manokwari viccinity. The reason for this is locals sell their specimens to a dealer in Manokwari who labels himself the specimens.
This is the same for "Kerowagi" in the Chimbu Province, "Mapia" in the Weylands Mts or "Rabaul" in New Britain.
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Post by nomad on Jan 22, 2013 5:48:27 GMT -8
That is interesting Wollastoni. I know O. paradisea chrysanthemum occurs at a number of localities in the Arfak mountains. Matsuka shows five localities for O. paradisea chrysanthemum all in the southern and eastern Arfak Mountains.
There is another comment I would like to make on O. [paradisea?] arfakensis]. It appears that Gilles Deslisle and Jean Sclavo have described two geographical forms of O. paradisea that are morphologically very close to arfakensis. These new forms rather surprisingly come from the east of the Arfak mountains on Supiori Island [ North of Biak] and from Yapen Island. The specimens they figured indeed look close to arfakensis. Their specimens seem to come from dealers material and if these localities are correct, this would be a wonderful extension of the arfakensis range. However many of us will know that dealers from this region have and do falsify their data. The specimens they have figured do look very close to arfakensis from the Arfak mountains than say occidentalis from Sorong. Lets hope their data is correct and arfakensis does indeed occur on these Islands. Deslisle and Sclavo have described the Supiori and Yapen paradisea as local forms of O. paradisea arfakensis. They regard three subspecies [ now four they have occidentalis as a subspecies] of O. paradisea and all the rest as infraspecific local forms. Their new designations are described from remarkably few specimens and these are a ' form local ' from Supiori Island one pair and ' form local fernandi ' Yapen 3 specimens, two males and one female.
Peter.
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 22, 2013 7:18:29 GMT -8
I find very strange to discover a new Ornitho species on Biak and Yapen which are not so big and had been thoroughly studied entomologicaly speaking.
Would be happy to read Adam thoughts about this.
I wouldn't describe a subspecies from "dealers material".
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myko61
Junior Member
Posts: 28
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Post by myko61 on Jan 22, 2013 7:27:58 GMT -8
Just wanted to add to the confusion. I have 2 pairs of O. paradisea sabinae that I purchased from 2 different reputable dealers here in the states. The males are the same, but the females are quite different. Female #1 looks much like the female sabinae posted by nomad, with white spotting in the forewings and white and yellow mixed hindwings. Female #2 has reduced white in the forewings and almost all yellow hindwings resembling female chrysanthemum. Is it possible that O. p sabinae females have two forms or, is this just variation in the species. I have not seen this much variation in females of any other paradisea species. Both pairs are ex-pupa from Nabire.
Norman
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Post by nomad on Jan 22, 2013 11:25:26 GMT -8
Wollastoni I was almost as surprised as you were by the apparent O. paradisea discoveries on the Islands of Supiori and Yapen. I thought if O. paradisea was discovered on them it might resemble O. paradisea borchi [paradisea] and not O. [paradisea?] arfakensis. Jan Pasternak makes some interesting comments on Yapan in his lovely book ' Fluttering Encounters'. The Island is 160km long and 25km wide. He mentions that dense virgin primary forest covers most of the Island. I believe that both Supiori and Yapen have not been visited by many Entomologists unlike Biak. Pasternak called Yapen remote and isolated and found travelling in the Jungle very difficult during his expeditions there. Pasternak did observe O. goliath and O. priamus on Yapen but not O. Paradisea. He does mention in his book " I have good reason to believe that either O. paradisea or O. tithonus or both do occur on Yapen as well, but have so far eluded discovery". Let us hope more specimens are forth coming from Supiori and Yapen because this would be a important discovery in Ornithoptera.
Yes Myko 61, O. paradisea sabinae is a strange subspecies [form local] that is why I called it a enigma earlier in this thread. As I mentioned O. paradisea sabinae was originally described as a form local of O. paradisea chrysanthemum by Oliver Schaffler. The female he figured in his Ornithoptera book is close to the female of O. paradisea chrysanthemum and like your female# 2. However my female of O. paradisea sabinae and your female 1# seems to be closer to the female of O. paradisea flavescens. I, like you, have never seem so much extreme variation in one O. paradisea population. One explanation is that the O. paradisea sabinae specimens are being bred from two different localities and the dealer is putting the nearest named town = Nabire, on his labels, probably he is also living there and shipping the specimens from here. It could be the same as Wollastoni mentions about those specimens from the Arfak mountains and the dealers putting Manokwari on their labels. I have been fortunate to examine quite a few of a English dealers spread male material of O. paradisea sabinae [he strangely does not have any females] and the ones he is selling seemed to be very constant in appearance and were all of a rather small size. I might add there is a specimen of O. paradisea chrysanthemum in the Schaffler book from Surang in the Arfak mountains f. loc. ornatum with heavily white marked forwings and this might suggest there are indeed two O. paradisea populations in the Nabire area.
Peter.
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Post by nomihoudai on Jan 22, 2013 12:23:43 GMT -8
Thank you for elaborating your answer again despite the fact that I did not pay attention of what you wrote previously otherwise this would have not skipped my eye. You are expressing here an opinion on what taxonomy you find correct in your view. In order to justify this regarding arfakensis you name a few arguments but the arguments that you give are observations (different caterpillar, different wing shape). There is no explanation why the different caterpillars will result in, and that is what a species consists of, reproductive isolation of the two groups of individuals. Regarding this very question there has been an interesting topic in the archives where Greg Watson and Adam Cotton raise good points, see message #16 and message #19 from www.insectnet.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=2176&forum=DCForumID1. Regarding the Ornithoptera richmondi, I have consulted the literature that I have and they do feed on different hostplants than O. priamus which could be a reason to split them. On the other hand you say that there has been tests on crossing both and that there has been offspring. If this offspring would be viable and fertile on their own then the most correct view would be to regard richmondia as a subspecies of priamus. This on the other hand would then show how highly variable this single species could be and any O. priamus subspecies justified by minor variation would just be nonsense. The next question is why is O. richmondia so far apart from the other populations? This is now a question and not a statement, but could it have to do with the last ice age? Here in Europe species moved to two different basins (towards Spain and towards Eastern Europe), after the ice age they had changed so much that the populations are now regarded as subspecies. The ice age was thus the reason how Pararge aegeria aegeria and Pararge aegeria tircis came into existence for example. Now if we apply this to Australia I could imagine (proof required!) that the rainforest would have extended all along the coast populated by Ornithoptera priamus. After the end of the ice age the populations got separated and this seperation of richmondi and priamus would have let to different coloration of the populations along with a change in size. Now the question is if a period of 10000 years would be sufficient in tropical regions to form to different species? Here in Europe it has only left subspecies as we can see. Furthermore you must always be very carefully about different coloration patterns, color can quickly change (look at selective breeding of goldfish,dogs or cats for example). The next thing is that we also must be careful about attributing a significance to a certain change in pattern. Humans are very good at discriminating patterns, their brain is very suitable for it. I guess butterfly brains are the same, but maybe in a different fashion unknown to us. Please see my reply as food for thought. You have expressed an opinion towards a valid split, if you do so you should underline this with arguments and not observations. I do not have an opinion what is correct or wrong in this matter as I do not have any argument nor proof for such. Rgds Claude
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