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Post by wollastoni on Dec 26, 2012 1:10:42 GMT -8
Jens, those are from very old collection and come with full permits.
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Post by Ascalaphus on Dec 26, 2012 1:42:52 GMT -8
Iroki, your pair of ssp. phonolithi is actually a pair of ssp. melliculus (=lithographicus, franconicus, bajuvaricus, posthumus, ancile), but it's still very beautiful.
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iroki
Full Member
Posts: 73
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Post by iroki on Dec 26, 2012 2:30:11 GMT -8
Iroki, your pair of ssp. phonolithi is actually a pair of ssp. melliculus (=lithographicus, franconicus, bajuvaricus, posthumus, ancile), but it's still very beautiful. Why do You think so? I have the same doubts that it might be not phonolithi pair, but the label states Hohentwiel (type locality of phonolithi) |
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Post by Ascalaphus on Dec 26, 2012 14:02:40 GMT -8
Indeed Iroki, the locality 'Hohentwiel' does indicate that your pair is ssp. phonolithi (=marcianus). Here are some characteristics of the specimens that contradict the data on the labels, according to Glassl, 2005:
- the 'Hinterrandschwärze' (dark scaling at the base of the hindwings, along the abdomen) should reach M2 (almost right in between the two oculi). In your phonlithi specimens it's almost absent.
- females: The 'Submarginale' and 'Glasband' (the almost transparent edge of the front wing and the first pale, submarginal line next to it) should be well developed in marcianus. However, your phonolithi female has a very pale edge and almost no scaling in the submarginal line.
Moreover, the pair shows the characteristics of melliculus: rounded, creamy-white wings without dark, dustlike scaling; impressive oculi etc.
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robert61
Full Member
Posts: 184
Country: GERMANY
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Post by robert61 on Dec 26, 2012 14:39:29 GMT -8
I live very close to the places where lithograficus/melliculus flies, your phonolithi and also the ones from Black Forest ssp.marcianus looks like our Apollo lithograficus
there have always been people trading Apollos with false locality labels
Robert
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 27, 2012 1:31:20 GMT -8
I agree with Robert that there have been many cases of falsified data labels, and disagree with iroki on his first point that it is unlikely that specimens with fake data labels would be sold at the auctioneers. In reality they would almost certainly neither have the time nor the knowledge to detect such fake data labels.
However I do agree with iroki that there can be considerable variation within subspecies of apollo and many other Parnassius, and it is quite possible that the data is correct but the specimen is not typical of the subspecies. It is just not possible to be certain, so it is necessary to accept the data label, especially as the new photo iroki posted seems to show that the label is probably correct (but is not 100% proof either).
Adam.
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Post by papiliotheona on Jan 9, 2013 13:15:21 GMT -8
Any places where you can still get legal apollo, anywhere?
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Post by pittendrighinsects on Jan 9, 2013 15:46:05 GMT -8
Yes, you can still get legal apollo in Russia, Kazahkstan and central Asia...btw, if you get a permit, you can still collect in Europe
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 10, 2013 0:31:47 GMT -8
Never seen such "apollo permits"...
You must work for a Museum to obtain those...
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Post by Ascalaphus on Jan 10, 2013 2:59:59 GMT -8
I doubt that anybody will give you permits on apollo collecting... And why ahould you get apollos from Russia or central Asia legally?? They are protected here as elseywhere!! Nowhere you can collec them legally without permits. Radovan Well ... there is a butterfly dealer on on this forum who claims he has permits to catch this species for scientific research. I guess he is doing research on the amount of money people are willing to pay for it on Ebay  Radovan is absolutely right. If you are really interested in this species, why not just photograph wild specimens and make a digital collection? |
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 10, 2013 3:42:59 GMT -8
AFAIK the only place to buy "legal" apollo are official auctions society like Drouot where old collections are sometimes sold with full permits (CITES) + authentification by experts...
This is a common lep even today in many places of Europe but this is the law.
And customers should be aware that 99.9% of all those offered apollo on ebay are illegal.
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Post by wollastoni on Jan 10, 2013 5:45:25 GMT -8
The good way to know if they are legal or not : does the seller provides permits copy with them or not.
Without permits copy, they cannot be legal.
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Post by wollastoni on Feb 25, 2013 3:08:21 GMT -8
Your friend Pequin thinks that except old apollo sold with CITES permits at Drouot, other fresh apollo sold on ebay (from Greece, Poland or France) should not be offered without clearly stating they are "without permits" because it is a risk for the buyer.
Apollo is not endangered by collecting but we don't want new stupid laws to happen... so all entomologists should be responsible in what they offer on ebay and should not sell apollo without permits.
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Post by quietachiever9 on Feb 25, 2013 3:13:03 GMT -8
But of cause its ok to sell "Parnassius graecus" without permits.
Its not on the CITES list ! ;D
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 4:26:43 GMT -8
a couple of recently aquired very old apollo specimens from the Sierra Nevada in Spain. Attachments:
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