terry2014
Junior Member
Birthday April 14 1938
Posts: 33 
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Post by terry2014 on Jan 10, 2014 4:22:40 GMT -8
I thought about leaving my British collection to a museum, there being many extinct/historic/unique specimens in it and letting my son sell the exotics and divide the sum equally between my other children, alas I have seen too much neglect in this area so that is out for me now, I will sell up if I reach an age where I can still enjoy myself and feel that the time is right, it will be an enormous emotional thing to do it but the alternative would be as mentioned before some collector offering a few thousand pounds for the whole thing and making a killing on ebay, I would come back and haunt him. Nobody but myself could possibly apprechiate the attachment I have to most of the specimens in my collection, for self caught stuff remembering the lengths I went to, to procure them, and the memories of that collecting trip, for the older stuff knowing the history behind the specimens from Leech, Hemmings, L W Newman, Chalmers Hunt, Rothschild etc and the feeling of excitement at taking some of the stunning and rare exotics off the setting board, cannot be quantified in mere words but I would rather my offspring have some kind of benefit from my labours than see a dealer who is in if more for the money than the love rip off my family when I am gone. |
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Post by smallcopper on Jan 10, 2014 5:29:13 GMT -8
People have made a lot of good points here. For most of us a lifetime's work has gone into building a collection and we have a deep emotional attachment to it. Opening any drawer can bring back evocative memories of field trips, or the first time we managed to purchase that rare bug. It's very hard to assign a monetary value to it as many specimens are irreplaceable. Personally I have a lot of type specimens and examples of taxa that have not been found for many years; these would be impossible to replace. Obviously it would be devastating for any of us to lose our collections but at least if it's insured we would get some compensation. Mine is currently uninsured but only because of the huge amount of work involved in cataloguing and valuing over 10,000 specimens; unfortunately this is a requirement by the insurance companies. Another question that has been covered in this forum before is the fate of our collections on our demise. The options would seem to be: 1) leave it to a museum, 2) leave it to another collector, 3) leave it to family members to be sold, or 4) sell it before we die so we get some benefit from the income. Unfortunately most museums have no interest in acquiring insect collections and don't have the capability to look after them. The only museum I know of that is actively seeking and buying up collections is the McGuire Center, and I guess that they're only interested in specialist collections with a strong scientific content. I only really know the situation in the UK where BMNH is the major museum; they are offered many collections but only accept very few as they won't enhance their existing collections - they don't need more of the same stuff. They did send many off to provincial museums but these weren't looked after and ended up turning to dust. I guess that not many of us know serious younger collectors to whom we want to leave a collection so it means that most collections end up being sold - usually being broken up by dealers. I guess that most of us couldn't bear to sell our collections whilst we're still able to appreciate them, but if it came to it they could provide some useful income if we fell on hard times. Obviously, family members with no interest could easily be ripped off so it would be as well to make some sort of provision for this ourselves before it gets to that point. Personally I collect groups, i.e. a single genus or subfamily. Over the years I've started on a few of these then given up with them and sold my holding. My collections of the two major ones I've stuck with are promised to BMNH, but they only want these because I have a good working relationship with the staff there and I have a lot of taxa that are under-represented in their collections. Bob An excellent summary, thank you Bob. You're helping to crystallise my thoughts: I've been meaning to catalogue my British collection for some years, and it's about time I did so. I've been wanting to digitally record all the specimens anyway, and still have it in my mind that it would be a marvellous 'life's work' to create a book with photos of as many British aberrations as possible. In these days of easy self-publishing and print-on-demand, it needn't be prohibitively expensive to produce. I'd use my collection as a starting point, and if I could get access to other people's collections would happily underwrite the travel costs in order to gather the necessary photographic material. But, I digress. I need to catalogue my collection. And, despite the obvious irreplaceability of a proportion of it, I will go down the route of insuring it. That's just my innate caution against the unexpected speaking. And as for what happens to it in the event of my death... I need to find a young, keen collector who'd value it and be glad of it. I'm still relatively young and spritely myself (only just the wrong side of 40!) so I'm hoping it won't come to that for many a year. But it pays to make provision for the eventuality in my will in the meantime. My son won't be out of pocket - he'll have the rest of my estate, after all - but the collection goes beyond monetary value, and its fate is important to me. Jon |
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mygos
Full Member
Posts: 230
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Post by mygos on Jan 10, 2014 6:46:15 GMT -8
The value of a collection is difficult to establish : is it what it did cost you (a fortune generally) or the money you would get if you were to sell it ? Often not that much ...
In my case I decided 10 years ago to sell my collection to a scientific Institute. My collection was specialised on the african genus Cymothoe (Nymphalidae), and contained several thousands of specimens including types, paratypes, abberations and well over 50 gynandromorphs ...
The money I obtained is nothing compare to my cost to complete it, but I have the pleasure to know that it is in good hands, its scientific value preserved, and I can visit it whenever I want !
I have seen so many nice and valuable collections disapearing in dust for all sort of good reasons, that I am very happy with the way I did ...
A+, Michel
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Post by bobw on Jan 10, 2014 7:39:39 GMT -8
Michel
What you've done is clearly the best solution. Your collection is preserved for posterity and you've got some money for it. Your collection, like mine, sounds like exactly the sort of specialist thing that institutions are looking for, but unfortunately this applies to far too few collections nowadays.
Jon
If you can find a young, keen collector who'd appreciate your collection and enhance it, that's possibly an even better solution. Unfortunately that's not so easy these days as most kids seem to have no interest in anything that's not electronic. I'm sure that most of us who are approaching our dotage would love to find a younger enthusiast to mentor, but if you look around at the bug shows you see hardly anyone under the age of 40. I sometimes despair that nobody will be pursuing this hobby in 40 years' time! I'm with you on the concept of insuring the collection, but cataloguing and valuing it is a huge task, and without this insurance companies don't want to know. Also, don't underestimate the amount of work involved in producing a book figuring the specimens in your collection. I spent ten years of my life writing a book on Colias; this was very stressful and there were very few illustrations involved. Also, Russwurm and Harmer have already produced pretty good books on British aberrations.
Bob
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 8:19:35 GMT -8
When I first started collecting, I had very limited knowledge about insects, and bought a lot of random specimens. I guess you could say I had beetle fever. As I refined my taste, I lost interest in many of my specimens but still wanted them to go to a good home and be useful. I talked to a local museum and they weren't interested in the least, so I decided to donate my unwanted specimens to the biology department at a local university. I expressed that I didn't want the specimens put in a box and stored away to be forgotten, so they are now being used as a teaching aid for the biology 101 labs. I am told the beetles were a big hit with students, and couldn't be happier. In hindsight, I'm glad they didn't go to a museum as I've heard horror stories of enthuisiests wanting to get access to the collections, but being denied for various reasons. I like the idea of passing on collections to younger enthuisiests, but it is hard to predict if somebody will properly take care of and appreciate the collection as the original owner did. There are a few younger members on here, like nomihoudai, that I think would be good candidates, but they are few and far between. From the videos I've seen of insect fairs, it is sad how few young collectors are in attendance  |
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Post by smallcopper on Jan 10, 2014 8:50:17 GMT -8
Jon If you can find a young, keen collector who'd appreciate your collection and enhance it, that's possibly an even better solution. Unfortunately that's not so easy these days as most kids seem to have no interest in anything that's not electronic. I'm sure that most of us who are approaching our dotage would love to find a younger enthusiast to mentor, but if you look around at the bug shows you see hardly anyone under the age of 40. I sometimes despair that nobody will be pursuing this hobby in 40 years' time! I'm with you on the concept of insuring the collection, but cataloguing and valuing it is a huge task, and without this insurance companies don't want to know. Also, don't underestimate the amount of work involved in producing a book figuring the specimens in your collection. I spent ten years of my life writing a book on Colias; this was very stressful and there were very few illustrations involved. Also, Russwurm and Harmer have already produced pretty good books on British aberrations. Bob Thanks for the sage advice, Bob. I'm no stranger though to the demands involved in book writing, including those involving multiple illustrations. I have one of my own (not a lep one; another field of natural history altogether) published at the moment by Princeton University Press, so I know how it is! Funny you should mention Russwurm and Harmer's books - it's precisely those and, without wishing to impugn the authors in any way, their shortcomings that make me want to compile the book that I (and I'd hope a few, and I know it would be a very few, hence the print-on-demand rather than usual publishing house option) have long coveted and would like to sit down on the long winter evenings and browse through. The existing books, and Frohawk's before them, merely whet my appetite for what I'd like to see in print. For example - creating 'plates' in Photoshop would be fairly easy for me, and hence examples of variation in a given species could, with their data, be assembled in one place digitally from as many sources as required. Meanwhile, I need to keep my eyes peeled for that elusive keen, knowledgeable young blade to bequeath the collection to. I've had a few individual specimens kindly given to me down the years by 'old hands', and it's amazing how deeply appreciated they have been and how encouraging I have found other's generosity, both in those material gifts but also in their sharing their time, experience and knowledge with me. I'd like to do that myself in turn one day. Heaven knows I'm a way off my dotage though! atb, Jon |
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Post by jshuey on Jan 10, 2014 8:51:26 GMT -8
Another question that has been covered in this forum before is the fate of our collections on our demise. The options would seem to be: 1) leave it to a museum, 2) leave it to another collector, 3) leave it to family members to be sold, or 4) sell it before we die so we get some benefit from the income. Unfortunately most museums have no interest in acquiring insect collections and don't have the capability to look after them. The only museum I know of that is actively seeking and buying up collections is the McGuire Center, and I guess that they're only interested in specialist collections with a strong scientific content. I only really know the situation in the UK where BMNH is the major museum; they are offered many collections but only accept very few as they won't enhance their existing collections - they don't need more of the same stuff. They did send many off to provincial museums but these weren't looked after and ended up turning to dust. I guess that not many of us know serious younger collectors to whom we want to leave a collection so it means that most collections end up being sold - usually being broken up by dealers. I guess that most of us couldn't bear to sell our collections whilst we're still able to appreciate them, but if it came to it they could provide some useful income if we fell on hard times. Obviously, family members with no interest could easily be ripped off so it would be as well to make some sort of provision for this ourselves before it gets to that point. Bob Here in the states, the situation is a bit different, and most of the Land Grant Universities have active and well maintained insect collection. They are generally excited to receive donationed collections. While many Lepidopterists are familiar with the University of Florida collection at the McGuire Center, the reality is that for most of it's history, it was just a typical university collection, similar to those found in many states across the US. For example, at Ohio State University, they have what I would call a "larger than average" land grant insect collection of around 3.5 million specimens. Michigan State University - located just to my north, is has larger Lepidoptera holdings but is smaller overall (1.5 million), and Purdue University here in Indiana is about 1.6 million specimens (with minimal Lepidoptera). The bottom line is that for almost any collector in the US (and Canada as well) there are major universities that have real commitments to maintaining their insect collections - and they are generally happy to accept donated collections. Land Grant Universities are responsible for supporting agriculture in their home states, and generally have large entomology departments that include systematists and taxonomists. These collections are part of their core mission and will be maintained. The flip side, is that the US has thousands of smaller colleges and universities that are also excited to accept your collection. These smaller institutions have no long-term commitment to entomology, and your collection is at risk if you donate it to smallish colleges. For example - Ohio University, Ohio State's little brother (enrolment at OU is 22,000 compared to tOSU's 57,000 students), has an excellent collection of local insects and southeast Asian beetles - maybe 150,000 specimens total. There is a good chance that no one has really looked at the collection since I left 30 years ago. And I'm guessing that maybe someone puts some PDB in the cabinets once very few years at best. At some point, a major collection of New Caledonia beetles will be lost when dermestids rip though the collection (if it has not already happened). John |
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Post by bobw on Jan 10, 2014 10:51:48 GMT -8
Thanks for the sage advice, Bob. I'm no stranger though to the demands involved in book writing, including those involving multiple illustrations. I have one of my own (not a lep one; another field of natural history altogether) published at the moment by Princeton University Press, so I know how it is! Funny you should mention Russwurm and Harmer's books - it's precisely those and, without wishing to impugn the authors in any way, their shortcomings that make me want to compile the book that I (and I'd hope a few, and I know it would be a very few, hence the print-on-demand rather than usual publishing house option) have long coveted and would like to sit down on the long winter evenings and browse through. The existing books, and Frohawk's before them, merely whet my appetite for what I'd like to see in print. For example - creating 'plates' in Photoshop would be fairly easy for me, and hence examples of variation in a given species could, with their data, be assembled in one place digitally from as many sources as required. Meanwhile, I need to keep my eyes peeled for that elusive keen, knowledgeable young blade to bequeath the collection to. I've had a few individual specimens kindly given to me down the years by 'old hands', and it's amazing how deeply appreciated they have been and how encouraging I have found other's generosity, both in those material gifts but also in their sharing their time, experience and knowledge with me. I'd like to do that myself in turn one day. Heaven knows I'm a way off my dotage though! atb, Jon Good for you Jon; I hope you're successful. I certainly benefitted by being given encouragement and advice from knowledgeable older, and often very well-known, entomologists. I'm sure that there's not one of us who wouldn't want offer the same encouragement and advice to keen younger people but where are they? Bob |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 11:06:33 GMT -8
I do see the younger generation at fairs but they have no interest whatsoever in deadstock, they camp around the creepy crawly stalls as these are deemed cool pets, there have been one or two beginners that I have been happy to help, my son loves fieldwork but has no interest in curation. I have the older generation of collectors to thank, in fact I am still being educated by one or two of them, they fanned a lifetimes passion that has stayed with me all of my life, other hobbies/interests have come and gone but I still retain the excitement that I did as a 6 year old with my little fishing net and jam jar.
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iroki
Full Member
Posts: 73
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Post by iroki on Jan 10, 2014 11:12:36 GMT -8
Good for you Jon; I hope you're successful. I certainly benefitted by being given encouragement and advice from knowledgeable older, and often very well-known, entomologists. I'm sure that there's not one of us who wouldn't want offer the same encouragement and advice to keen younger people but where are they? Bob They are around, all the time  I know user of this forum who is younger then me ( I'm 21 ). Ia a real life I know at least 3 guys who are interested in butterflies like me. But collecting butterflies is just a hobby for me. The most important for me are studies. When I was 8 years old boy i cuptured butterflies with tennis racket  |
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Post by 58chevy on Jan 10, 2014 14:19:17 GMT -8
I've had dreams of an insurance policy (say from Lloyd's of London) whereby the insurer agreed to send me on collecting trips to every location where my bugs were collected until every specimen was replaced. No doubt the premiums would be many times what I could afford, but it would be a great antidote to the loss of a collection.
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Post by cabintom on Jan 10, 2014 20:44:01 GMT -8
They are around, all the time I know user of this forum who is younger then me ( I'm 21 ). Ia a real life I know at least 3 guys who are interested in butterflies like me. But collecting butterflies is just a hobby for me. The most important for me are studies. When I was 8 years old boy i cuptured butterflies with tennis racket So, there's at least a few of us here in our twenties (I'm sitting at an age of 25). As a youngster, I was first inspired to start collecting after a visit to Montreal's Botanical Gardens and their Insectarium. After watching a video of a lepidopterist's antics while chasing after butterflies and moths in various exotic locations, I was hooked. Unfortunately, I lost interest in my teens... but now that I'm living in Africa, well, I can't think of a better hobby. |
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Post by bobw on Jan 11, 2014 4:39:12 GMT -8
Here in the states, the situation is a bit different, and most of the Land Grant Universities have active and well maintained insect collection. They are generally excited to receive donationed collections. While many Lepidopterists are familiar with the University of Florida collection at the McGuire Center, the reality is that for most of it's history, it was just a typical university collection, similar to those found in many states across the US. For example, at Ohio State University, they have what I would call a "larger than average" land grant insect collection of around 3.5 million specimens. Michigan State University - located just to my north, is has larger Lepidoptera holdings but is smaller overall (1.5 million), and Purdue University here in Indiana is about 1.6 million specimens (with minimal Lepidoptera). The bottom line is that for almost any collector in the US (and Canada as well) there are major universities that have real commitments to maintaining their insect collections - and they are generally happy to accept donated collections. Land Grant Universities are responsible for supporting agriculture in their home states, and generally have large entomology departments that include systematists and taxonomists. These collections are part of their core mission and will be maintained. The flip side, is that the US has thousands of smaller colleges and universities that are also excited to accept your collection. These smaller institutions have no long-term commitment to entomology, and your collection is at risk if you donate it to smallish colleges. For example - Ohio University, Ohio State's little brother (enrolment at OU is 22,000 compared to tOSU's 57,000 students), has an excellent collection of local insects and southeast Asian beetles - maybe 150,000 specimens total. There is a good chance that no one has really looked at the collection since I left 30 years ago. And I'm guessing that maybe someone puts some PDB in the cabinets once very few years at best. At some point, a major collection of New Caledonia beetles will be lost when dermestids rip though the collection (if it has not already happened). John John I was aware that things are different in the States but didn't want to comment without first-hand experience. You're lucky that your major universities have thriving entomology departments and a commitment to maintaining collections. I'm in regular correspondence with a few people who work in these universities and they're great people with whom to collaborate. Quite a few of my friends in the US have made donations to such collections and I'm told you can claim tax relief on the value of such donations (I believe that this is also the case in Germany). If that were the case here I'm sure many people would jump at the chance! I've discussed this at length with Andy Warren in the past and it does appear that things are much more enlightened over there. On different note, you're incredibly lucky that you can still use PDB. It's been outlawed in Europe for years now, thus threatening everybody's collections. I try to bring a little back with me whenever I visit the States but it's too heavy to bring much. Unfortunately, nothing else seems to work. Bob |
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Post by johnnyboy on Jan 14, 2014 4:32:00 GMT -8
I had thought about insuring my collection, as I was worried about the possibility of damage or theft during a burglary. After we were burgled three years ago, and it was obvious that the perpetrator had looked at cabinet drawers, but took nothing (no damage either as, fortunately, my main cabinet was unlocked, otherwise I'm sure it would have been broken into to see what it contained)I have decided that insurance probably isn't worth it.
Johnny
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Post by papilio28570 on Jan 28, 2014 16:22:14 GMT -8
Bequeathing a large collection containing many prized specimens to a young enthusiast would be foolish unless the youngster is financially well established. Think back to when you were 25 and what your financial situation was. Now imagine an old friend dropping an enormous collection on you when he died. You would have to move out of that one room flat you were struggling to afford and move to a much, much larger home with reliable air quality control. I think you would be doing your young friend and your lifelong collection both a great disservice.
If you have a large collection and you have many rare or prized specimens, they should not be in your house like some sort of trophy. They should be donated or on loan to some university or museum where they will be properly protected from everything. You can get a charitable tax deduction for donated specimens and any insect fair will provide you a suitable number of appraisers. Get the appraisal, get a tax exempt facility to accept your specimens at the written appraised value and you are done until tax time.
Take detailed photographs of these specimens which you can refer back to if doing comparative research or simply bragging about what you have collected over the years. Forget about insuring the rest of your common bugs. Insure the hard assets i.e. equipment, storage units, etc. Most of this is covered under your homeowners insurance anyway, but have photos or a video of everything and keep that in someone else's house. You will be amazed about how much you forget you owned when time to fill out a very long form listing your losses.
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I know user of this forum who is younger then me ( I'm 21 ). Ia a real life I know at least 3 guys who are interested in butterflies like me. But collecting butterflies is just a hobby for me. The most important for me are studies.
