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Post by jshuey on Sept 9, 2013 7:12:11 GMT -8
Maybe a gypsy type moth will lay eggs in your gear or on your clothes, or some "cool cat" will spin up in your backpack in Belize and you'll bring them back with you? You are just as much risking an infestation as someone on a plane who contracted a new strain of flu from overseas, or the scumbags hatching out a atlas moth for their kid. If not more so. just saying. Where do you want this to stop? Interestingly, I treat all my luggage with a heavy coat of permenone every time I leave the country. And of course, my clothes are treated as well (the intended use of permethrin). I and my gear are about as toxic as I can get in this regard. I assume that this will both repel, and ultimately kill anything that gets inside my gear. Plus, given that I'm bringing bugs back when ever I travel, I go though agricultural inspections before I talk to Fish and Wildlife about the dead bugs I'm transporting. And my yellow card (WHO - International Certificate of Vaccination)is as current as is my passport - especially since I started traveling to known yellow fever endemic areas a few years back - but also for malaria, hepatitis, etc... . And yes - I get a flue shot, just because I don't have enough time to get sick. I really do go out of my way to try and minimize the risk of bringing pests or diseases back to North America (or conversely taking them south to C.A. or S.A.). In many ways, it's what you would expect any well informed patriot to do. Shuey |
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Post by myotis on Sept 9, 2013 8:36:37 GMT -8
Zdenol23- nearly every winter where I live we have low temps that get at least -20F. The USDA hardiness zones are based on the minimum annual temp. Except for the far south and CA, much of the US are zone 6 and up. Zone 6 is based on a minimum annual temp of -10F. Although microclimates and proximity to large cities/ buildings may provide a little more warmth, if you think A Atlas or any other tropical species of lep can overcome this, you are far more an optimist than I.
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Post by zdenol123 on Sept 9, 2013 9:10:53 GMT -8
Hi again Evolution  ... I dont know if atlas would manage it, but those mentioned Longhorn betles from Australia and China or asian Coccinela from subtropic and tropic can manage - 10 C for a few months a year without any damage, ...that is the thing - do we know anything about it ? Can we put ourselfs or our childrens in bigger crap, than is now ( globally ) for a sake of our " I want I want " ? We do, but we deffo should NOT ! Attacus is probably bad example, even there are some species flying in high altitudes ( cold climates ) in SE Asia...I dont know much about it...but there is more than enough written about Insect invaders for proof. eeeehhh...look what I found. Even States having problems with this Ozzie  > www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7425.html?printpagewww.fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/pestsDiseases/clb/ = Anoplophora chinensis www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22554162 = Harmonia axiridis There is no way, that someone could contol this and allow 1 person, but the other one not... And because of a few enthusiasts nobody will and take all the risk involved ... Interesting subject for me ! Very interesting what other people think about this. Thanks for the post, really ! |
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Post by myotis on Sept 9, 2013 10:49:09 GMT -8
zdenoll23- I guess this will come down to one of those issues where we'll have to agree to disagree.
Another couple points though. I think it is unfortunate when exoticleps tries to point out that rarely are hobbyists the source of our exotic pest problems and the best Jshuey can do is an example over 100 years old. I could list more that were introduced by the govt who claims to protect us, but because of the magnitude of damage by the gypsy moth it will seem to be an argument winner. I know a couple hobbysists in my area that have been raising leps longer than I have been alive. They said they used to raise exotic stuff all the time in the 60-80s. (I've seen their notes/ photos) And they both said they would just release them, believing that there were no worries about them becoming established. I mention it just because as Jsheuy pointed out that an amateur started the gypsy moth problem, numerous people have released other exotic leps, but they will not be notorious, because nothing happened.(There have got to be more out there than just the two I met.) Not that I think that this would be a good idea, but in today's global society, we tend to think of any problem that faces us is new and dramatic (I have come to hate the word unprecedented) and has resulted with everything being approached with a broad brush, which as I mentioned before, not only do I think this is a bad idea but may come to bite us (or our children) in the rear end some day. I mentioned USARK before. Read the conservation section under the position statements bar. (to long to paste) I also enjoy raising reptiles and amphibians and believe in this position. My fear is that one day many lep species will be extinct because so few knew how to save them.
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Post by zdenol123 on Sept 9, 2013 11:21:51 GMT -8
"""And they both said they would just release them, believing that there were no worries about them becoming established"""
Thats the worst thing ever....no comment...there is about 100 of not really nice words in my head for describing people like that.
As I said, I m doing serious study and I know the impact of this...
Other than that....yes I m with you ! I could say I agree. The main question is, how to force the law if breeding will be allowed for 1 group of people ( responsible!? hobbyist ) and illegal for the other one ? Who will be able to import something ? Blue eyed blond or small fat bloke, rich or poor, serious responsible hobbyist or irresponsible money grabbing breeder, government institution or amateur scientist ? I cant really imagine it in real.
And as I said before. How do you know which specie will survive in your climate and which not ? Which can be destructive to ecosystem and which not ? I m confident, that its NOT worth of trying ! Our mother Earth or Nature is f$$$ed up already, so why to risk any more damages ?
For me - there must be some regulations, some laws regulating this. But how to implement them in reality for good for all of us ? That is what I see impossible...
Anyway, who from government or which government cares about its own people ? There are more important issues, than this one...look at Syria, CO2, water resources and so on...another thing is, that for example US government makes a fortune out of it I bet...
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Post by exoticleps on Sept 9, 2013 12:44:58 GMT -8
Careful myotis, you are among a god who claims to be the authority on these things, and he will soon let you know because he cant help it. but has a very degrading, sarcastic, and demeaning way of talking down to us commoners and ###ting on our "cool cats" when in reality the only difference is he's chasing them in those super lax countries . I don't remember him ever giving his credentials just a bunch of hoo haa about how safe he is when traveling for his own stamps. Im sure he would be singing a different tune if he wasn't aloud to do what he does, but since he's above it (for now) he can treat his fellow hobbyists or amateurs like dirt. I hope he emails me when he gets back from his next trip with the spare ova he stashes in his dirty socks. if he was down there doing legit collecting and research I wish he'd had said so, otherwise hes in our class but thinks he's a pro or doing something different than us...
the gypsy moth was brought here by a professional not amateur, and yes was and is serious. he made sure to add in there that this man was not as careful and perfect as him, putting him down there with us gutter folk.
What are these high and mighty even doing wasting their precious time on insectnet? Im not talking about the decent pro's, but the pro's and amatuers that look down on little Johnny and his dad for doing something they enjoy together?
zdenol is also right, how can such things be amended when its too difficult to police who, what when etc.? He has a valid argument and that's great, its what the post is for, But I don't know about any of you guys, I have no time for water walkers like JSHUEY. and is why I usually don't post here on any topic in any thread, as it only brings out egotistical A-holes that claim to be so busy yet slither around these commoner forums with more pointless unproductive posts than anyone, looking to feel better about themselves. If anything I should thank him for reminding me why not post at all.
I have a few red-eyed tree frogs here, we got them at Petco a while ago and my son loves them, and the more I see with the insect trade I think to do more with Amphibians, at least for now. For those of us without that ento diploma this is a hobby, though I research my local area and collect, breed etc. it's still only a hobby. Its fun but if you want to you can learn much along the way. I do what I can for my local environment in all aspects, only to be put down as some kind of insect terrorist, ruining my fellow americans ecosystem? Its a hobby, no different than people who golf, conoe, ski,model trains, etc etc. oh and yes a hobby just like going collecting out of country for ###s to bring the dried stuff back. So thank you from both sides of the debate for the thoughts and possible ideas, everyone else F*@k on...
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Post by jshuey on Sept 9, 2013 14:03:28 GMT -8
Careful myotis, you are among a god who claims to be the authority on these things, and he will soon let you know because he cant help it. but has a very degrading, sarcastic, and demeaning way of talking down to us commoners and ###ting on our "cool cats" when in reality the only difference is he's chasing them in those super lax countries . I don't remember him ever giving his credentials just a bunch of hoo haa about how safe he is when traveling for his own stamps. Im sure he would be singing a different tune if he wasn't aloud to do what he does, but since he's above it (for now) he can treat his fellow hobbyists or amateurs like dirt. I hope he emails me when he gets back from his next trip with the spare ova he stashes in his dirty socks. if he was down there doing legit collecting and research I wish he'd had said so, otherwise hes in our class but thinks he's a pro or doing something different than us... Point by point - I am no god - despite my best attempts. You happen to be advocating for a practice that professionally cuts near and dear to my heart – invasive species. While your practices may not put ecosystems at risk, loosening the rules certainly puts allows others who might not be as contentious as you to gamble with North America’s ecosystems. On the plant front, I helped find the initial funding that established MIPN (Google it). Their “office” is in the extra space next to mine. I could be quiet and let you explain why the laws suck, or I can speak up for the rules I think are designed to protect our country’s ecosystems. Cool cats was not meant to be sarcastic. I raise cool cats – but local cats only. That’s what we call a cool larva around here – a cool cat. My credentials include an MS in evolutionary biology and a Ph.D. in insect ecology. Lately I’ve been working mostly in restoration ecology. (Nice overview starting at page 90 at images.peabody.yale.edu/lepsoc/nls/2010s/2012/2012_v54_n3.pdf)My “stamps” revolve around understanding the distribution of butterflies in Belize – and always include permits from both the Belizean Government as well as the parks we work in. Next month will be the 17th trip sampling in that country. If I wanted stamps, I’d go someplace with a much richer fauna – or at least someplace with different bugs. We only added 4 new species to Belize on the last trip. To date, we have about 24,000 records of butterflies from Belize, representing almost 1,000 species. It hard work to find new stamps – but that’s not really the point. I view leps as a hobby. It’s not what I get paid to do, and pretty much any work I do on leps takes place late in the evening. (I’ll have a few bugs to spread later tonight). A bit of my real job revolves around a couple of endangered species, but it’s something less than 5% of the job. And trust me – I do everything I say to minimize the risk that I’ll bring home invasive species. My socks generally get thrown away before I leave Belize, since they never quite come clean again after a few weeks in the mud. Plus, I usually need to free up space in my luggage and my socks usually smell pretty bad. So, no ova smuggled back into the country. So, sorry I can’t share. the gypsy moth was brought here by a professional not amateur, and yes was and is serious. he made sure to add in there that this man was not as careful and perfect as him, putting him down there with us gutter folk. So – what about what I said implied he was “not as careful and perfect as him (me), putting him down there with us gutter folk.” I pointed out that he thought you could cross a silkmoth with a gypsy moth – implying that even in the late 1800’s, he was pretty amateurish (even given the poor understanding at the time of species, crossing breeding and the like). No put down intended towards anyone. I certainly would never consider anyone as gutter folk. At worst, poorly informed… What are these high and mighty even doing wasting their precious time on insectnet? Im not talking about the decent pro's, but the pro's and amatuers that look down on little Johnny and his dad for doing something they enjoy together? I happen to like insect net – and I guess I forgot to ask if it was ok by you. Is it? Should we take a vote? FYI – my son is usually the one raising the cool cats at our house. Last night we grabbed a mantis so that we could get an egg mass. zdenol is also right, how can such things be amended when its too difficult to police who, what when etc.? He has a valid argument and that's great, its what the post is for, But I don't know about any of you guys, I have no time for water walkers like chewy. and is why I usually don't post here on any topic in any thread, as it only brings out egotistical A-holes that claim to be so busy yet slither around these commoner forums with more pointless unproductive posts than anyone, looking to feel better about themselves. If anything I should thank him for reminding me why not post at all. You know - my nickname was Chewy in high school. Most folks grow out of that kind of thing… (Ha! - this is a legit put down – but based on you calling me a name! Otherwise - I would not have done it). And if you hadn’t basically started up a thread stating how stupid the laws are that are intended to try and minimize the introduction of new invasive species to the US, I would not have jumped your ass. Post something constructive, and I’m with you man! I have a few red-eyed tree frogs here, we got them at Petco a while ago and my son loves them, and the more I see with the insect trade I think to do more with Amphibians, at least for now. For those of us without that ento diploma this is a hobby, though I research my local area and collect, breed etc. it's still only a hobby. Its fun but if you want to you can learn much along the way. I do what I can for my local environment in all aspects, only to be put down as some kind of insect terrorist, ruining my fellow americans ecosystem? Its a hobby, no different than people who golf, conoe, ski,model trains, etc etc. oh and yes a hobby just like going collecting out of country for ###s to bring the dried stuff back. So thank you from both sides of the debate for the thoughts and possible ideas, I agree – I view collecting as a great hobby – even with an ento diploma. But you know, this is a forum, and you have to expect that an occasional comment that may beg to differ with the point you are trying to make. Your hobby really should not be some sort of ecological "Russian roulette" and you can still have plenty of fun raising North America's very cool Saturniidae cats. Point taken! Chewy |
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Post by exoticleps on Sept 9, 2013 14:30:07 GMT -8
wasn't looking for everyone to green light anything, or agree. I was trying to see where folks stood. its the way you come off, and you'll get it back. Don't turn around now and say nothing you said wasn't. Your taking the cool cat thing out of the context as you used it originally, and your second post started out sarcastic. I don't need to quote you on each instance you did it. the "chewy" thing was a mistake of your handle, so I apologize for that.
have it your way bro, you win. feel better now?
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Post by exoticleps on Sept 9, 2013 14:43:35 GMT -8
I have edited the post of your handle so you sleep tonight. my fault. I remembered it wrong during my post.
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Post by myotis on Sept 9, 2013 14:58:13 GMT -8
Exoticleps- I have met a number of hobbyists around the world who say they have been contacted by those in positions of authority here seeking pupa/ ova that us serfs would not be allowed to have. The hypocrisy of the "do as I say, not as I do" crowd is always disappointing. I am also rather rather surprised at the number of people who think that we need our current regulations (or more) but have nothing nice to say about the government enforcing them. I will always think that an educated free person is far less dangerous than a black market smuggler, so to speak. You mentioned a dad and his son just wanting to raise a few leps, but I'll ad to that someone who likes at the minimum have a lucrative hobby. I do reptile demonstrations at schools/ parties and bring whatever native caterpillars/ moths/ butterflies I have that are in season during the summer too. I can't figure out what would be so bad about me raising a few tropical citrus feeding swallowtails, tropical saturniidae or Heliconious butterflies during the winter to bring to programs during the winter months (sometimes we all need a little something to remind us of summer and keep away cabin fever in the winter)
Jshuey- I looked at the MPIN website. I could have missed it, but does this mean you are trying to get regulations enacted on gardeners with the same ferocity as insect hobbyists wishing to raise exotic species? (Most American gardeners plant non-native species and most of the plants listed on the site can be easily purchased at any garden center) Or is this merely an educational endeavor where you are trying to get gardeners to consider native alternatives instead? (But insect hobbyists don't have that choice...to make educated educated decisions on their own)
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Post by exoticleps on Sept 9, 2013 16:14:50 GMT -8
I do agree with you myotis, most of us involved in this are responsible enough for them to loosen up. I just feel the risk of anyone on the street being able to buy in the herp trade is far more risky, given some of their aggressive behaviors and lethal capabilities. Plus the possibility that they too can carry a number of alien pathogens and contaminates. What about the E. coli and other nasty bacteria that puts kids and adults in hospitals from these pets, how many people are strangled in their sleep by their pet boa? Plus when these animals are found running loose, its because the person lost interest, couldn't afford the upkeep, proper housing etc. You also have a good point about the 1000's of non native plants that can be purchased locally and on online. Around here we had a invasive shrub introduced by no other than the state game commission. We call it Tartarian honeysuckle. It was planted by the agency to give the wildlife another browsing choice, but the stuff has literally taken over the state and choked out the understories, to the point that the native hardwoods cannot seed and grow. I have part of my property wooded and all the mature picea etc are dying out but nothing that is supposed to be there can replace them. Do you hear anything about these things? No, you don't when the "machine" was at fault. then you see on the news a python is found in the glades and its almost reported as a joke. I know of people that have greenhouses filled with exotic imported orchids and that is their love, I don't see how that is hurting anyone, but Im sure someone would. This is all my point here. Not so much why we cannot have our cake, but why so many other things are left go that are just as risky and scary for our lands. I'm just looking for an explanation to this question, and also as it pertains to these other items. (how are those other items explained away) I'll have to look at the page jsheuy mentioned to see what that's about. I really didn't want anyone else or myself to become tempered about it, just sort it out. I also understand jsheuy this is a forum of debate and on matters like this things can get hot, though not my intention at all. Im not saying your view is wrong or mine or anyone else no matter where we all stand on it. Im not planning on trying to change all this single handedly, so don't worry about that  You may not agree with me or others with my position but the least we could ALL do is respect each others views or ideas as we are all intelligent, educated enthusiasts on here all sharing the same love- insects. pro or not. Hobbyists on here are a different breed than the rednecks walking around with anacondas on their shoulders trying to be cool, or the guys keeping certain frogs just to lick and get high. Aside from those examples I just don't think any one of us can say one or the other is wrong for our thoughts on these subjects. only opinion. Pro ban hobbysists wouldn't change the regs in their favor if it was less strict, just as we that appose the ban wont change it in our favor. I do see the herp market getting crunched someday, and truth is the rednecks wont care, but all the legit enthusiasts will suffer as some of us feel we are. I keep some amphibians under lock and key, all legal and non dangerous/venomous to my child or myself but I honestly cant say Id be that upset as I am with this. |
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Post by jshuey on Sept 10, 2013 5:51:04 GMT -8
Jshuey- I looked at the MPIN website. I could have missed it, but does this mean you are trying to get regulations enacted on gardeners with the same ferocity as insect hobbyists wishing to raise exotic species? (Most American gardeners plant non-native species and most of the plants listed on the site can be easily purchased at any garden center) Or is this merely an educational endeavor where you are trying to get gardeners to consider native alternatives instead? (But insect hobbyists don't have that choice...to make educated educated decisions on their own) MIPN is a regional resource designed to support anyone concerned about invasive species - because of the confusing way states and the Feds regulate plants versus animals, MIPN is focused solely on plants (and that was the biggest need here in the Midwest). MIPN is mostly in the education business, producing informative brochures, field guides and so on for distribution by our members. Here in the Midwest, you can usually find these in State Park information areas, state and county fairs and so on - usually for free, but some are for sale (at the cost of printing and distribution - so they are cheap). MIPN staff also make presentations across region at trade shows, science meetings and the like. Basically, if you can cover their costs to travel (and your group is relevant to the cause - they can't do "garden clubs"...), they will come and provide and overview of selected issues. This is a low budget operation, with just two permanent, but part-time staff members. Because MIPN is an NGO (the 2 staff members are actually employed by Purdue University even though they are physically based outside my office)they do not try and influence regulations. That is a generally state-by-state thing, and there are groups that are trying to get some species out of trade. For example, here in Indiana, there is a team of people that evaluate potentially invasive species, and rate them on a sliding scale for DNR. The ultimate hope is that around 20 species that are sold commercially will be eventually be removed from trade. Note that the nursery trade has two members on this committee, and they take the findings back to there trade groups so that nurseries can ponder the implications. Even though they are based here in Indiana, MIPN staff are not a part of that team. Note that there is a difference between exotic (which we call non-native in this business) and invasive. The vast majority of exotic species are not a problem. Even the ones that are ubiquitous, like dandelions or Queen Ann's lace are not classified as invasive (but they are naturalized, meaning they grow freely in the wild but really don't threaten native ecosystems). But there species like purple loosestrife and garlic mustard that take over complete habitats. Some of these problems species are still in trade, such as various European buckthorns, honeysuckles, etc.. , and MIPN offers alternatives that are native that be used in place of such species. Note that most invasive plants are not sold commercially - things like Japanese stiltgrass, Chinese Tree of Heaven, and Spotted knapweed got here on their own. There are a lot of people trying to get USDA and US-FWS to enforce their existing rules better so that these "accidental importations" slow down (hence my jumping on this thread). Most MIPN members are actually private people who are concerned about the issue, and want to move towards native plantings. Here in Indiana, there is a group "Indiana Native Plant and Wildflower Society (they have a web site as well) that are dominated by home gardeners and hobby botanists. At the moment, they are featuring planting guides to enhance flowerbed for monarchs - pretty cool. Any way, enough about MIPN. Shuey |
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Post by papiliotheona on Sept 15, 2013 7:11:01 GMT -8
I Name the ones that we are guilty of in history? Samia Cynthia would be a good start, but not a good argument of what happens to negatively impact our ecosystem, and in my opinion is one of the most hardy species. They have been here for many years, and if it wasn't for the imported very invasive Alainthus tree they probably wouldn't have stood a chance to survive in such low numbers and sparse populations that exist where they do. ... Lazy, ignorant and power hungry sums it up myotis. What I don't understand about the folks that seem like the Govt's are just in this, is most of them wouldn't admit that at some point now or past did break these regs. Do you have any idea how many great, respectable law abiding people in this country import, export and personally "smuggle" in Saturniids on their person? young and old. Read more: insectnet.proboards.com/post/34948/quote/4907#ixzz2eP3WbXX4Let's not forget gypsy moth.. The Wikipedia intro for the species.. The gypsy moth (Lymantria dispar) was introduced in 1868 into the United States by Leopold Trouvelot, a French scientist living in Medford, Massachusetts. Because native silk-spinning caterpillars were susceptible to disease, Trouvelot imported the species in order to breed a more resistant hybrid species. Some of the moths escaped, found suitable habitat, and began breeding. The gypsy moth is now a major pest of hardwood trees in the eastern United States.[1]
The first US outbreak occurred in 1889, and by 1987, the gypsy moth had established itself throughout the northeast US, southern Quebec, and Ontario. The insect has now spread into Michigan, Minnesota, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. Small, isolated infestations have sporadically occurred in Utah, Oregon, Washington, California, and British Columbia, but these have been eradicated.[citation needed]
Since 1980, the gypsy moth has defoliated over one million acres (4,000 km2) of forest each year. In 1981, 12.9 million acres (52,200 km2) were defoliated. In wooded suburban areas, during periods of infestation, gypsy moth larvae crawl over man-made obstacles and sometimes enter homes.[2] When feeding, they leave behind a mixture of small pieces of leaves and frass, or excrement. During outbreaks, the sound of moths chewing and dropping frass may be loud enough to sound like light to moderate rainfall.[3] Gypsy moth populations usually remain low, but occasional increases to very high levels can result in partial or total defoliation of host trees.[4]
According to a 2011 report, the gypsy moth is now one of the most destructive insects in the eastern United States; it and other foliage-eating pests cause an estimated $868 million in annual damages in the U.S.[5]
Note that even though he was a "professional" entomologist, in 1868 he still thought he could cross them with native silkmoths - a pretty amateurish idea. I'm a strong believer in these regulations - which are designed to reduce the rate at which exotic species become naturalized in the US. I don't want my ecosystems potentially degraded to accommodate your personal desire to raise cool cats. And I agree that your last comments pretty much some up the arguments of those who believe that their personal rights trump those of the rest of our citizenry. Shuey With all due respect, John, I think that the heavy-handed tactics the feds have used to control the gypsy moth (mass sprayings, release of insect pathogens, willy-nilly distributions of foreign parasitoids, etc.) have done far more damage to the ecosystem than the actual moth... |
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Post by jshuey on Sept 15, 2013 7:51:11 GMT -8
"With all due respect, John, I think that the heavy-handed tactics the feds have used to control the gypsy moth (mass sprayings, release of insect pathogens, willy-nilly distributions of foreign parasitoids, etc.) have done far more damage to the ecosystem than the actual moth?"
Personally, no need to worry about disrespect to me. Some of the efforts have not worked well, and the net result has been a disaster. All those parasitoids that USDA released without testing to see host breadth, have ben a complete disaster.
Shuey
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Post by papiliotheona on Sept 15, 2013 16:15:12 GMT -8
It comes down to money, money, money. The USDA doesn't want to see economic harm from gypsy moth feeding (i.e. reduced yields of nut crops , less money in Forest Service coffers because people don't want to pay to camp where trees have been defoliated, etc.), so all is fair game for them. We can't move something across state lines, but they can turn loose a bunch of parasitoids from China and PNG and we are supposed to think that's swell.
Frankly I don't think L. dispar has been anywhere near as disastrous as the establishment line states. Tens of thousands of square miles of untouched old-growth forest is a food bonanza just waiting to be exploited in some form or another, somewhere. Also remember that the gypsy moth was introduced just as the Passenger Pigeon (a native species that occupied a similar role in the world of herbivory) was getting wiped out.
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...
> 
You may not agree with me or others with my position but the least we could ALL do is respect each others views or ideas as we are all intelligent, educated enthusiasts on here all sharing the same love- insects. pro or not. Hobbyists on here are a different breed than the rednecks walking around with anacondas on their shoulders trying to be cool, or the guys keeping certain frogs just to lick and get high. Aside from those examples I just don't think any one of us can say one or the other is wrong for our thoughts on these subjects. only opinion. Pro ban hobbysists wouldn't change the regs in their favor if it was less strict, just as we that appose the ban wont change it in our favor. I do see the herp market getting crunched someday, and truth is the rednecks wont care, but all the legit enthusiasts will suffer as some of us feel we are. I keep some amphibians under lock and key, all legal and non dangerous/venomous to my child or myself but I honestly cant say Id be that upset as I am with this.