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Post by matthewjcampbell on Sept 4, 2013 21:14:06 GMT -8
I'm not sure what we can do to change these laws, but it is quite obvious that the restrictions are completely beyond necessary.
Even the argument that a foreign bacterium will come in on eggs or pupae means nothing, as millions of people bring them through on their clothes and shoes while travelling.
In my area, I have to be careful of wild larvae as parasites are an issue...specifically introduced parasites. Always worrying about the health of the wild silkmoths in particular.
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Post by mygala on Sept 6, 2013 0:03:56 GMT -8
The somewhat good news is that what you are having issue with are actually regulations, not laws.
Laws are made by congress, and in the current political climate, I doubt whether there is the will to change anything.
However, regulations are set by the agencies, as their interpretation of how to enforce the laws that congress has written. These are easier to change.
A good start would be to find a sympathetic Senator or Congressman. One politician on your side could apply pressure to an agency like USDA to loosen up certain laws that don't directly conflict with their mission.
You'd think with the hundreds of politicians (and their aides) in Washington, that there would be at least one butterfly enthusiast.
JMO.
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Post by wollastoni on Sept 6, 2013 10:06:02 GMT -8
Not sure, a butterfly enthousiast has more important things to do than politics...  |
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Post by myotis on Sept 8, 2013 4:06:55 GMT -8
I was complaining to a naturalist at a nearby butterfly house about US regulations. He told me he didn't think they were strict enough?!?!?!. And unfortunately, those that make the regulations are far more likely to listen to him than me (He has a piece of paper that saws he know more than me)
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Post by myotis on Sept 8, 2013 8:18:33 GMT -8
Our conversation went something like this. I was commenting on the tropical species that were in the exhibit and lamenting that I wished I could raise them. The naturalist brought up that it would be illegal in the US. I responded back saying that I knew that, but thought it was ridiculous as these tropical species wouldn't survive a midwest winter. He said that he didn't think that mattered as he said that parasites and diseases could also be introduced. I asked for some, but he couldn't name any. He said there was just too much we don't know and it is better not to risk it in the hands of amateurs. After that he turned to other guests who were waiting to ask questions.
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Post by wollastoni on Sept 8, 2013 10:22:27 GMT -8
Well, I rather agree with him on this...
I think some exotic fauna should not be in the hands of anyone.
European rivers are full of Florida turtles who are a real disaster for native turtles...
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Post by myotis on Sept 8, 2013 10:54:10 GMT -8
We have issues here with people releasing pets and them becoming a pest too. (Florida Everglades and pythons). But I don't think such a broad rule should punish everyone. Another gripe I have is who decides who the amateur is. Just because one has a piece of paper doesn't necessarily make them the expert. (I have met countless naturalists at state and local parks and nature centers that aren't worth their salt. I had one earlier this summer insist I was wrong when I pointed out their photo of a monarch was really a viceroy) The US government doesn't exactly have the best track record with exotic species either.
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Post by wollastoni on Sept 8, 2013 14:20:57 GMT -8
Exoticleps < I guess we have a language issue here... sorry for my English.
My first point on politics was just a joke saying that if very few of us (amateur entomologists) are in Congress, it´s because we have no free time to start a political life.
My second point is that yes I think the trade of "live" animals can be dangerous because of invasive species and parasites. I am not saying it should be banned, I am saying it must be done seriously... and as you said some petshops are doing stupid things.
You can disagree with me, no problem, but please respect other people opinion, why are you so agressive with me ? (and by the way I am an amateur, and all my US friends are also amateurs, so I don't see your point).
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Post by myotis on Sept 8, 2013 14:45:58 GMT -8
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one of our problems in the US is that there is a law that basically classifies almost all insects as potential "agricultural pests" which gives the USDA the authority to regulate them. And if there's anything our government loves to do, it's regulate anything and everything. When you add that to, as Wollastoni pointed out, entomologists (amateur or professional) have better things to do than be politicians too..............we get the situation we are in.
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Post by myotis on Sept 8, 2013 17:43:01 GMT -8
exoticleps- It is frustrating, but I wouldn't give the reptile industry a pass. They will soon be in the same boat we are in and they are worried that the day is coming fast. Take a look at the USARK website. (By the way, is there an equivalent group for insect hobbyists? Maybe there should be). I don't want balance, I want common sense, personal freedom and personal responsibility.
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Post by zdenol123 on Sept 9, 2013 0:17:00 GMT -8
they are worried about a dozen butterfly eggs?quote] I would be very careful with this statement ! Its not that easy ! Compare not native reptile and Insect is not right. Insect can reproduce 1000 x faster than anything else. And we - in Europe having problems or did have problems with invasive Leps or Coleos for which we are paying or paid a lot of bucks ! Even USA having problems with introduced gypsy moth or ants or bees, hornets, etc. We have here asian Cerambycids which destroying many trees in South, then asian ladybird which spreads all around Europe, putting the native specie in minority what has impact on the rest of our fauna and flora. Then american imperialistic beetle  which caused a panic in mid of the last century and so on. So, there must be some regulations. And the easiest way is to ban everything, like Australia did after loosing bilions of $ for damaging their ecosystem and fighting with invasive species. Allow one specie and ban the other one is impossible to regulate. I can`t really imagine how anyone could do this. And the thing is, that we dont really know anything about Insect. We cant tell which specie can be dangerous for ecosystem or economy. Nobody knows if, for example " Attacus " could be a problem in 100 years time, if could evolve and could be a danger for us. So, the easiest way for any "lazy" government is - ban it... Invasive/introduced species, if Insect or sheeps, rats, turtles, fish ( been watching document about some introduced fish in USA and they said it kills native species... ) or anything else can cause a lot of damaged to ecosystem and cost bilions...whatever you say...one more thing is, that not even in 100 years there is a lot of species not native to Europe or native to South Europe which becomes native by many ecological factors in countries where they werent recorded before. Impact ? Nobody can tell now, but do we know what they can do in 50-100-500 years ? We should NOT take any risk...thats for sure ! |
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Post by myotis on Sept 9, 2013 3:43:04 GMT -8
zdenol123- Do you or the govt really think that over 100 years Atacus Attlas could establish itself and become a pest in the US midwest? That's absurd. I think comparing insects and reptiles or anything else is good. Painting with a broad brush is what is not right. I am full well aware of the damage caused worldwide by exotic species (my yard is filled with them), but to really lump them all together is not right either. The world is filled with with exotic species that are not bad . I think it would be hilarious to see what our grocery store shelves or gardens would look like if we could go back in time and banned all non-native plants (wheat? apples? soybeans?) or insects (the honey bee?) I think the problem is that the solution by a "lazy" (Or power hungry is more like it) govt is to just ban everything. Although originally meant in a different way, I like this quote by Thomas Jefferson "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
exoticleps- Yeah navigating the USARK website can be a bit daunting but I think just their mission statement says it all. We need something like that for insect hobbyists.
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Post by zdenol123 on Sept 9, 2013 5:41:16 GMT -8
And why not ? Any proof or guaranty, that it cannot estabilish in States ? Do you know something about this specie ? Foodplant, faunistic, biology, natural enemies, diseases, etc ... It lives in similar climates, so why is it absurd ? In Europe we have ( not even a century ) Cerambycid from tropical Australia and is determined as a pest in South Europe, so why not Attacus ( maybe bad example ) from sub or tropical? The same with another pest Cerambycid from subtropical/tropical SE Asia which has been for the first time recorded some 20 years ago and doing quite big damages on many different trees in Middle east and S Asia. Can you tell which exotic specie is good or bad or might be bad ? How can anyone say for sure, this specie of Saturniid will be allowed to enter the country, because it looks good and that one not ? Who would take care of it ? Who would pay for it ? Or make everything legal and wait what gonna happen, like it happened in Australia ? Who knows for 100% bionomy/biology of every specie ? What about taxonomical aspect ? How would you make an list of species which are allowed to be imported and which not ? We dont know even 1% of it. Impossible ! There is many serious studies about this and I dont think one of us is educated enough to say yes/no/bad or good As I said, I would be very careful saying something what we havent got a clue about...only the Nature knows consequences ! I agree what Australia or NZ does. They got the lesson, they learned and they trying to save what is left...same will happen to rest of us if we agree with it or not... globalization is evil thing web.duke.edu/nicholas/bio217/mg53/ |
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Post by jshuey on Sept 9, 2013 5:51:05 GMT -8
I Name the ones that we are guilty of in history? Samia Cynthia would be a good start, but not a good argument of what happens to negatively impact our ecosystem, and in my opinion is one of the most hardy species. They have been here for many years, and if it wasn't for the imported very invasive Alainthus tree they probably wouldn't have stood a chance to survive in such low numbers and sparse populations that exist where they do. ... Lazy, ignorant and power hungry sums it up myotis. What I don't understand about the folks that seem like the Govt's are just in this, is most of them wouldn't admit that at some point now or past did break these regs. Do you have any idea how many great, respectable law abiding people in this country import, export and personally "smuggle" in Saturniids on their person? young and old. Read more: insectnet.proboards.com/post/34948/quote/4907#ixzz2eP3WbXX4Let's not forget gypsy moth.. The Wikipedia intro for the species.. The gypsy moth (Lymantria dispar) was introduced in 1868 into the United States by Leopold Trouvelot, a French scientist living in Medford, Massachusetts. Because native silk-spinning caterpillars were susceptible to disease, Trouvelot imported the species in order to breed a more resistant hybrid species. Some of the moths escaped, found suitable habitat, and began breeding. The gypsy moth is now a major pest of hardwood trees in the eastern United States.[1]
The first US outbreak occurred in 1889, and by 1987, the gypsy moth had established itself throughout the northeast US, southern Quebec, and Ontario. The insect has now spread into Michigan, Minnesota, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. Small, isolated infestations have sporadically occurred in Utah, Oregon, Washington, California, and British Columbia, but these have been eradicated.[citation needed]
Since 1980, the gypsy moth has defoliated over one million acres (4,000 km2) of forest each year. In 1981, 12.9 million acres (52,200 km2) were defoliated. In wooded suburban areas, during periods of infestation, gypsy moth larvae crawl over man-made obstacles and sometimes enter homes.[2] When feeding, they leave behind a mixture of small pieces of leaves and frass, or excrement. During outbreaks, the sound of moths chewing and dropping frass may be loud enough to sound like light to moderate rainfall.[3] Gypsy moth populations usually remain low, but occasional increases to very high levels can result in partial or total defoliation of host trees.[4]
According to a 2011 report, the gypsy moth is now one of the most destructive insects in the eastern United States; it and other foliage-eating pests cause an estimated $868 million in annual damages in the U.S.[5]
Note that even though he was a "professional" entomologist, in 1868 he still thought he could cross them with native silkmoths - a pretty amateurish idea. I'm a strong believer in these regulations - which are designed to reduce the rate at which exotic species become naturalized in the US. I don't want my ecosystems potentially degraded to accommodate your personal desire to raise cool cats. And I agree that your last comments pretty much some up the arguments of those who believe that their personal rights trump those of the rest of our citizenry. Shuey |
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Post by zdenol123 on Sept 9, 2013 5:54:35 GMT -8
"""Not sure exactly where in Europe you are, but from your stance you are saying is that you still don't import non-native insects even if it is legal where you are? or you do, which would have me question your objectives here. """
UK. Of course I do import. I just killed 8 Oryctes which has been brough from my trip to Tenerife + everyday killing a dozen of Cerambycids brought back from my trips cross the globe. I m not saying that I agree with everything. What I dont agree with is careless of some of us. You talking about yourself - fair enough, but can you put your hands in fire for that redneck who importing ( legally or not ) hundreads of Insect every year and by his careless way he is doing that, everytime something escape ? I know a few...thats why I m saying that. And because I m an taxonomist and serious entomologist, not a collector or hobbyist, I do care about these things and I know that it does a big mess...
"""Name the ones that we are guilty of in history?""" We here or we as a whole ?
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which caused a panic in mid of the last century and so on.