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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 21, 2013 13:32:07 GMT -8
I've just remembered where I saw P. bianor stockleyi from "Chiang Mai". It was a specimen on the old Swallowtails of the World website. The owner bought it from a dealer in Chiang Mai back in the days when the real location of this butterfly was a commercial secret.
Adam.
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Post by dynastes on Nov 21, 2013 13:35:23 GMT -8
I think it is highly likely (in fact almost certain) that a dealer in Chiang Mai sent the specimens to Insect-Sale, who put "Chiang Mai" on the data label. I think it can be. especially considering that I bought on insect-sale Stichophthalma neumogeni which actually is S. howqua |
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Post by timmsyrj on Nov 22, 2013 10:07:59 GMT -8
I've been informed that the Louisa Louisa photos above could actually be Louisa siamensis due to the lighter markings around the hindwing edge, nominate has a more uniform colour right to the edge.
They do look different to the photo on insectsale website and a google search hasn't really helped, does anyone have any descriptions of the sub species.
I have a feeling though that these are very variable, the 6 male uemurai all vary,
Rich
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 22, 2013 11:49:01 GMT -8
The specimens you photographed as S. louisa louisa from "Chiang Mai" look very similar to specimens figured in Ek-Amnuay (2012) from Wang Chin.
The original descriptions of louisa, mathilda and siamensis are all available on BHL.
Adam.
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Post by timmsyrj on Nov 22, 2013 12:28:48 GMT -8
Thanks for the info and the pm, going on the description of siamensis I would say that the photo on insectsale website is not Louisa Louisa but infact siamensis as the hindwing is pretty much unform colour, my photos are in fact nominate.
I have butterflies of vietnam vol3 coming tomorrow which should help with a few species / sub.species.
Rich
Thanks for your other enquiries for me, next season maybe.
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Post by timmsyrj on Nov 23, 2013 5:05:49 GMT -8
The good news is the Butterflies of Vietnam Vol.3 has arrived, bad news I'm now totally confused with the identifications of most of the species pictured above.
I believe the first picture of neumogeni neumogeni is stichopthalma howqua howqua .? If so I'll have to order some as I don't have the nominate.
The fruhstorferi look nothing like the fruhstorferi pictured in the book. Even missing markings on the underside that are in the original descriptions, black line in HW cell area.
My Mathilda does not match the one in the book either, in fact the specimen in the book is more like the nominate Louisa I have pictured above.
Stichopthalma howqua suffusa has now been raised to species level stichopthalma suffusa with a sub species tonkiniana from north vietnam.
On a plus side, it looks like the specimens if have coming are stichopthalma howqua iapetus which resembles nominate and stichopthalma neumogeni regulus both from Lao cai prov. N. Vietnam.. But don't think the additional uemurai are females as the pictured female is notably different on the recto surface compared to the males.
A very confused Rich..
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 23, 2013 5:55:22 GMT -8
The good news is the Butterflies of Vietnam Vol.3 has arrived, bad news I'm now totally confused with the identifications of most of the species pictured above. I believe the first picture of neumogeni neumogeni is stichopthalma howqua howqua .? If so I'll have to order some as I don't have the nominate. The fruhstorferi look nothing like the fruhstorferi pictured in the book. Even missing markings on the underside that are in the original descriptions, black line in HW cell area. My Mathilda does not match the one in the book either, in fact the specimen in the book is more like the nominate Louisa I have pictured above. Stichopthalma howqua suffusa has now been raised to species level stichopthalma suffusa with a sub species tonkiniana from north vietnam. On a plus side, it looks like the specimens if have coming are stichopthalma howqua iapetus which resembles nominate and stichopthalma neumogeni regulus both from Lao cai prov. N. Vietnam.. But don't think the additional uemurai are females as the pictured female is notably different on the recto surface compared to the males. A very confused Rich.. To add to your confusion, maybe ... Yutaka Inayoshi came to visit me this afternoon, and I discussed the S. louisa situation with him. He said that your "Chiang Mai" specimens will definitely have come from Wang Chin, and that the ssp. there is also mathilda, the same variable subspecies as in Laos, not ssp. siamensis or louisa. Subspecies siamensis was described from a single female labelled 'Siam'. Inayoshi-san has examined the type, and it is the same phenotype as specimens from Chantaburi, ie the area of SE Thailand just west of the Cambodian border, and not like mathilda female. Ssp. louisa comes from the Dawna area of southern Burma (Habitat in Tenasserim in montibus "Taoo"). The type locality is in Burma near to Umphang, W. Thailand, and the nominate ssp. louisa is found in Umphang and also the far southwest of Chiang Mai at Om Koi. Inayoshi-san also thinks that uemurai may actually be conspecific with S. cambodia as the genitalia are similar, but he needs to study them more before he can be sure. Adam. |
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Post by timmsyrj on Nov 23, 2013 6:41:18 GMT -8
 did he shed any light on the "fruhstorferi" specimens pictured above, I've seen identicle specimens on several websites, google search, but the new book contradicts all these. The underside is more like howqua than Louisa on the specimens posted by Dynastes If these are as variable as seems, surely a reference book isn't much good if it only shows one form, certainly confuses us mere collectors. Rich
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Post by dynastes on Nov 23, 2013 6:42:01 GMT -8
KAREL SPITZER AND JOSEF JARO - NOTES ON STICHOPHTHALMA SPECIES IN THE TAM DAO MOUNTAINS OF NORTHERN VIETNAM
The sympatric occurrence of Stichophthalma louisa Wood-Mason and S. howqua (Westwood) (Amathusiidae) has been investigated
in the Tam Dao Mountains in northern Vietnam. Distribution and diagnosis of both species and their subspecies are discussed. The Tam Dao range
seems to be the only locality of sympatric occurrence of both closely related species.
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Post by dynastes on Nov 24, 2013 9:49:57 GMT -8
Today I mounted two more specimen of Stichophthalma howqua sp. (aka Stichophthalma neumogeni neumogeni from insect-sale.) Identified differences from my another S. howqua suffusa (Guilin,GuangXi, China). "new" Stichophthalma howqua sp. have a deep orange color with more saturated black details pattern of the wings. I also discovered that the dark parts of wing pattern at a certain angle shine in dark blue. My S.howqua suffusa dont have this dark blue shine. Attachments:
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Post by wolf on Nov 24, 2013 14:27:02 GMT -8
This is one of mine from Tam Dao, Vietnam. Is it ssp. tonkiniana or suffusa? i have labeled mine as the first, using the butterflies of indochina website.  |
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Post by timmsyrj on Nov 25, 2013 1:41:56 GMT -8
According to the Butterflies of Vietnam Vol 3, stichopthalma howqua s.sp suffusa has been raised to species level so is now stichopthalma suffusa with a sub species in N. vietnam from than moi, Tonkin , stichopthalma suffusa s.sp tonkiniana both of these have heavily suffused black markings on hind wing edges.
There is a sub species of stichopthalma howqua from N.Vietnam however, stichopthalma howqua s.sp iapetus which resembles nominate howqua with separated not suffused hindwing markings, they fly together in some places, Lao cai .
Going on the photos of the recto surface in this book I would say that this is stichopthalma howqua s.sp iapetus, I have some coming from vietnam soon so hopefully I'll have some photos of them on here soon.
Regards Rich
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 25, 2013 4:01:51 GMT -8
I spoke to Inayoshi-san on the phone just now, and he thinks that the neumogeni in the first post could be either neumogeni or howqua. He is not sure yet which they are, and needs to see some more papers that he hasn't copies at hand, as it is quite difficult to be certain about these two species.
He said the photos from dynastes of "fruhstofferi" look very similar to louisa louisa from The Thai-Burma border area, and would like to know where these specimens come from. He thinks they are probably not true fruhstorferi.
He also said that he doesn't want to be definitive at the moment about any of the Vietnamese ones, as he needs to see more literature, but he did say that Wolf's Tam Dao specimen does look like tonkiniana.
I got the impression from Inayoshi-san that the Vietnamese Stichopthalma are still not completely clearly identified, and more work is needed on them. He also said that even the species separation needs further investigation to find out if it is valid or not. I know for example Chilasa imitata, which is actually a subspecies of epycides, that sometimes Monastyrskii likes to split species even when the genitalia are the same.
Adam.
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Post by timmsyrj on Nov 25, 2013 5:30:46 GMT -8
Taken from Butterflies of Vietnam Vol 3 the forewing lengths are as follows neumogeni male 44-46mm, howqua iapetus 53-60mm and suffusa tonkiniana 63-71mm. So not taking dwarf specimens into account this should be enough to narrow it down to species.
As regards dynastes fruhstorferi, they look identicle to other reference photos I've seen for this species, having not seen nominate Louisa, because my specimens from insect-sale are Mathilda apparently then I'm none the wiser.. Got to say though that the underside of dynastes specimen looks nothing like my Louisa s.sp.
Rich (not getting any less confused)...
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Post by dynastes on Nov 25, 2013 6:08:26 GMT -8
I spoke to Inayoshi-san on the phone just now.... ...He said the photos from dynastes of " fruhstofferi" look very similar to louisa louisa from The Thai-Burma border area, and would like to know where these specimens come from. He thinks they are probably not true fruhstorferi. Adam. I also think, that it NOT true fruhstorferi. Do not published any monograph about Stichophtalma genus? |
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