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Post by dynastes on Dec 16, 2013 12:23:02 GMT -8
help deal with the status of the species. Placing of collection I found two pairs of Papilio maackii \ bianor species I want to understand their true species belonging.
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Post by dynastes on Dec 16, 2013 12:25:36 GMT -8
tnis two i get as P. maackii - from China, Liaoning, QianSHan 08.2012 summer generation |
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Post by dynastes on Dec 16, 2013 12:29:58 GMT -8
this two butterflies I get as P. bianor from - China, Sichuan Province, Luzhou - 07.2009, summer generation but underside of the wing similar to Papilio maackki, not bianor |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 16, 2013 13:42:54 GMT -8
Andrey,
The Liaoning specimens are P. maackii maackii and the Sichuan ones are also P. maackii, but subspecies han Yoshino, 1997 (TL. Fujian), or ssp. shimogorii Fujioka, 1997 (TL. Sichuan). Both names were published in December 1997, and it seems that han may have priority. I will check the exact publication dates and let you know here. Of course, if you believe that the populations from E and W China should be different subspecies then you can use both names, in which case the Sichuan specimens are ssp. shimogorii.
P. maackii from Sichuan is often sold as P. bianor by local dealers, as they don't realise thaere are 2 species there. In fact the two species from W China are mixed under P. bianor in the NHM collection in London too. The best way to distinguish them is by looking at the forewing underside. The submarginal band points to the apex in P. maackii whereas in P. bianor it bends towards the costa. There are also subtle differences in the shape and colour of the hindwing.
Adam.
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Post by dynastes on Dec 16, 2013 21:03:07 GMT -8
thanks Adam. I also have two different specimen, but without collecting data  . First - as P.bianor ex.pupae, from culture, not wild |
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Post by dynastes on Dec 16, 2013 21:06:36 GMT -8
second - also as P.bianor, but it very similiar to P.dialis photo in Maslowaki Janusz, Krzysztof Fiolek, 2010: Motyle swiata (first photo in Attachments - from book)
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 17, 2013 1:19:23 GMT -8
Andrey, The Liaoning specimens are P. maackii maackii and the Sichuan ones are also P. maackii, but subspecies han Yoshino, 1997 (TL. Fujian), or ssp. shimogorii Fujioka, 1997 (TL. Sichuan). Both names were published in December 1997, and it seems that han may have priority. I will check the exact publication dates and let you know here. Of course, if you believe that the populations from E and W China should be different subspecies then you can use both names, in which case the Sichuan specimens are ssp. shimogorii. I received confirmation today from Yutaka Inayoshi that Fujioka's name, shimogorii, was published on 15th December 1997. I already knew that han was published on 4th December, so this name definitely has priority if the two names are treated as synonyms. Adam. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 17, 2013 1:23:17 GMT -8
thanks Adam. I also have two different specimen, but without collecting data . First - as P.bianor ex.pupae, from culture, not wild This looks like Papilio dehaanii rather than true bianor. An underside photo would be very useful to confirm it is not maackii. P. dehaanii has been shown to be a separate species from bianor although many people don't know that is the case. Adam. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 17, 2013 1:30:00 GMT -8
second - also as P.bianor, but it very similiar to P.dialis photo in Maslowaki Janusz, Krzysztof Fiolek, 2010: Motyle swiata (first photo in Attachments - from book) It is difficult to be sure as the photos are rather grainy, but I think this specimen does look like Papilio dialis tatsuta from Taiwan. Adam. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2013 3:46:18 GMT -8
 while we are on the subject I picked this up at an insect fair on sunday just out of curiosity really as it looks different to any ssp of bianor/maackii that I have, at first I thought it may be syfanius, alas no data, any ideas Mr Cotton? |
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Post by dynastes on Dec 17, 2013 4:01:49 GMT -8
Add new photos, more quality & with nature lighting P.bianor ex.pupae, from culture, not wildAttachments:
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Post by dynastes on Dec 17, 2013 4:03:07 GMT -8
P. bianor \ dialis ??
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 17, 2013 6:54:06 GMT -8
Add new photos, more quality & with nature lighting P.bianor ex.pupae, from culture, not wildYes, this is P. dehaanii, but I can't be sure which subspecies or which country it comes from. P. dehaanii mostly comes from Japan and the associated southern islands (except the Yaeyama group (Ishigaki etc)in the far south), but is also found in Korea and China as far south as 'Tsingtau' [nowadays known as Shangdong]. It is most likely to be ssp. dehaanii, but I wouldn't like to be definitive about that. Adam. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 17, 2013 7:00:07 GMT -8
View Attachmentwhile we are on the subject I picked this up at an insect fair on sunday just out of curiosity really as it looks different to any ssp of bianor/maackii that I have, at first I thought it may be syfanius, alas no data, any ideas Mr Cotton? Dunc, Please show me an underside photo. It looks like a spring specimen, but I can't be sure which species it is from just the upperside. If you wanted me to guess from what I can see on the upperside I would say P. maackii rather than bianor. Adam. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 17, 2013 7:03:28 GMT -8
Looking again at the underside I am much less confident that this is P. dialis tatsuta from Taiwan. The forewing underside looks much more like P. bianor, and I think that it looks most like ssp. thrasymedes, also from Taiwan, rather than other subspecies of P. bianor. The problem is that the forewing underside of P. dialis tatsuta should be much darker than this specimen. Adam. |
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