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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 17, 2013 7:41:55 GMT -8
PS.
This could also be mainland Chinese P. bianor bianor judging by the more obvious red submarginal lunules on the hindwing upperside. Taiwanese bianor doesn't usually have as much red.
This highlights the problem of identifying specimens without data. All I can go on is appearance in the photos (which can actually vary with lighting as well as reality - the visibility of the red lunules could easily be a result of lighting) and compare that with the known variability of the various populations.
Adam.
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Post by dynastes on Dec 17, 2013 10:06:58 GMT -8
Looking again at the underside I am much less confident that this is P. dialis tatsuta from Taiwan. The forewing underside looks much more like P. bianor, and I think that it looks most like ssp. thrasymedes, also from Taiwan, rather than other subspecies of P. bianor. The problem is that the forewing underside of P. dialis tatsuta should be much darker than this specimen. Adam. It can be P. bianor bianor from GuiLin, GuangXi, China ? |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 17, 2013 10:43:27 GMT -8
It can be P. bianor bianor from GuiLin, GuangXi, China ? It could possibly be P. bianor bianor from anywhere in China, Sichuan to Shanghai down to Guangxi. If you bought it from eBay Cynthia WITH THAT DATA then it is probably correct, but if you bought it somewhere else you MUST not assume that is the correct data at all. Cynthia also sells Sichuan bianor that is indistinguishable from Guangxi bianor, and there are many other Chinese suppliers selling P. bianor from various places in China. Apart from which I cannot be certain that it isn't actually from Taiwan. There are dealers breeding bianor thrasymedes in Taiwan too. Adam. |
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Post by dynastes on Dec 17, 2013 10:53:39 GMT -8
It can be P. bianor bianor from GuiLin, GuangXi, China ? It could possibly be P. bianor bianor from anywhere in China, Sichuan to Shanghai down to Guangxi. If you bought it from eBay Cynthia WITH THAT DATA then it is probably correct, but if you bought it somewhere else you MUST not assume that is the correct data at all. Cynthia also sells Sichuan bianor that is indistinguishable from Guangxi bianor, and there are many other Chinese suppliers selling P. bianor from various places in China. Apart from which I cannot be certain that it isn't actually from Taiwan. There are dealers breeding bianor thrasymedes in Taiwan too. Adam. I bought it from local seller in my country (many years ago, when I first started collecting and at that time I little worried about non-availability collecting data), and as I know him, I think he bought it in turn on InsectSale |
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Post by crino on Dec 17, 2013 14:03:57 GMT -8
In my opinion, Papilio dialis has a different hindwing shape. It varies from specimen to specimen, but it's different than the shapes of P. bianor and maackii. Here is a male of the ssp tatsuta from Taiwan.  |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 18, 2013 6:32:26 GMT -8
I bought it from local seller in my country (many years ago, when I first started collecting and at that time I little worried about non-availability collecting data), and as I know him, I think he bought it in turn on InsectSale In that case it is very unlikely that the specimen came from GuiLin, Guangxi, as that locality has only relatively recently been collected much. Adam. |
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Post by dynastes on Dec 18, 2013 7:42:43 GMT -8
I bought it from local seller in my country (many years ago, when I first started collecting and at that time I little worried about non-availability collecting data), and as I know him, I think he bought it in turn on InsectSale In that case it is very unlikely that the specimen came from GuiLin, Guangxi, as that locality has only relatively recently been collected much. Adam. this specimen from 2006-2008 years |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Dec 18, 2013 10:02:21 GMT -8
In my opinion, Papilio dialis has a different hindwing shape. It varies from specimen to specimen, but it's different than the shapes of P. bianor and maackii. Here is a male of the ssp tatsuta from Taiwan. Yes, I agree the wingshape of dialis is a little different to bianor and maackii, which is different again, but of course this can be somewhat variable from specimen to specimen in each species. If you look at the first set of photos of the specimen it does look rather like dialis tatsuta, but the second set of photos suggest it is probably bianor. To be honest identification of these from photos alone is somewhat a case of informed guesswork (especially without any data). It's quite different to examining a specimen 'in your hand', when characters are really much more obvious. The most important character distinguishing this specimen IN THE PHOTO from Taiwanese dialis is the pale discal stripes on the forewing underside. These should only be obvious around the tornal area in dialis tatsuta. dynastes, Even though some bianor specimens were coming out of Guangxi after 2006, most mainland Chinese specimens for sale were from Sichuan until recently (and still are in reality), but sometimes specimens are offered from Hubei, Yunnan etc. It's just not possible to say where it came from without data, and even though I think it may be ssp. bianor it could well be thrasymedes from Taiwan. I can't be sure from photos, and I wouldn't always be 100% sure when examining actual specimens either, as the variability of ssp. bianor includes specimens that are basically identical to thrasymedes. Adam. |
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