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Post by dynastes on Feb 3, 2014 5:01:21 GMT -8
Hello everyone. Please help ID subspecies of female Ornithoptera paradisea.
I got two pairs: O. p. chrysanthemum & O. p. flavescens, but the seller is not marked, which of females relates to what subspecies. I ID males, but can not ID females. So, please help!
This is a photo of one of the females. Another awaits mounting.
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Post by lepidofrance on Feb 3, 2014 6:29:54 GMT -8
Seems to be flavescens.
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Post by nomad on Feb 3, 2014 10:44:26 GMT -8
Yes that's the flavescens female. What is the locality.
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Post by dynastes on Feb 4, 2014 10:12:23 GMT -8
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Post by nomad on Feb 4, 2014 10:56:58 GMT -8
That 's interesting because a lot of Dealers regard the Timika paradisea population as belonging to subspecies detanii, while others suggest its a geographical race of flavescens.
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Post by simosg on Feb 4, 2014 12:09:11 GMT -8
I have never seen a real flavescens offered (speaking for the female, as there seem to be no sure characteristic at the male). As the author of detanii is a member of this forum, it would be the best if he could leave some words on the characteristics and the locality here.
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Post by trehopr1 on Feb 4, 2014 13:07:50 GMT -8
Can anyone reliably tell me just how many legitimate SUBSPECIES of Paradisea are their now accepted by lepidopterists?? I've followed this site for the last 2 years and have heard perhaps 4 or 5 reoccurring (common) subspecies names always used (other than the nominate).
However, after going to the "Tony Nagypal" site for quick reference I find listed a total of 11 subspecies (other than the nominate)!!
Which names could be considered questionable AND how the heck does anyone differentiate so many subspecies apart RELIABLY (other than looking at collecting locations) ??
My questions are largely with regard to the Male butterflies rather than the females because, I fear stepping into the bounds of telling apart the different females is just another (can of worms)......
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Post by nomad on Feb 4, 2014 13:39:30 GMT -8
Hi. It depends on the author. Sclavo & Deslisle [2012] have four subspecies. Matsuka [2001] eight and so on. Some regard subspecies arfakensis including some here to be a good species. In some of the races, it is the females that are easier to determine. Peter.
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Post by nomad on Feb 4, 2014 13:43:22 GMT -8
P.S. I doubt if the taxonomists will EVER agree.  |
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Post by dynastes on Feb 7, 2014 2:00:30 GMT -8
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Post by dynastes on Feb 7, 2014 2:06:18 GMT -8
and second female
but it is absolutely not similar to female of O. p. chrysanthemum
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Post by lepidofrance on Feb 7, 2014 7:30:21 GMT -8
Number one seems to be O. p. chrysanthemum et number 2 O. p. flavescens (males).
The female (upperside) is flavescens.
Using the excellent Hirotaka Matsuka's book : Natural History of Birdwing Butterflies.
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Post by krupten on Mar 3, 2014 3:29:18 GMT -8
After I looked at the pictures - it would be doubtful that Number ONE is chrysanthemum - a localized race from near Ransiki in the VP. I have collected the larvae there and reared out the adults - and they for the most part display yellow consistently but in varying degrees. Their legs are Yellow - (thus the local name of Kaki Kunning as opposed to Eka Dua). Those from Timika - "detani" are a dark grey or metal color - and from memory - those from the Etna Bay side are brown - as there were a few taken some time ago. Albeit base color is NOT a taxonomic difference - however it is still a tool to isolate and reasonably be able to isolate the local. I would most likely say - until further material is available to retain the name "detani" and flavescens as separate until fresh material is forthcomeing - thus specimens of both from Timika should be different morphs of "detani" and neither flavescens and in particular NOT chrysanthemum. If you wish pictures of the larvae and host plant from Timika I have them - cheers
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Post by krupten on Mar 3, 2014 3:51:13 GMT -8
After I looked at the pictures - it would be doubtful that Number ONE is chrysanthemum - a localized race from near Ransiki in the VP. I have collected the larvae there and reared out the adults - and they for the most part display yellow consistently but in varying degrees. Their legs are Yellow - (thus the local name of Kaki Kunning as opposed to Eka Dua). Those from Timika - "detani" are a dark grey or metal color - and from memory - those from the Etna Bay side are brown - as there were a few taken some time ago. Albeit base color is NOT a taxonomic difference - however it is still a tool to isolate and reasonably be able to isolate the local. I would most likely say - until further material is available to retain the name "detani" and flavescens as separate until fresh material is forthcomeing - thus specimens of both from Timika should be different morphs of "detani" and neither flavescens and in particular NOT chrysanthemum. If you wish pictures of the larvae and host plant from Timika I have them - cheers
There are several "collectors" who rear out paradise and meridionalis in timika - and I looked thru hundreds of pairs - I think you paid for two pairs of detani - as to have TWO races in one area is NOT impossible (Glossina) but highly unlikely in the Ornithoptera
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