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Post by ash on Apr 24, 2014 4:19:55 GMT -8
Hi,
It might sound like a silly question - but what features can I use to identify the difference between Papilio krishna and Papilio arcturus? I have long been interested in Australasian Papilionidae and have a reasonable handle on them but I am only a newby when it comes to Asian Papilionidae and I am looking at Papilio subgenus Achillides. Some species pairs appear very similar to the newby like me e.g. krishna and arcturus, polyctor and bianor, chikae and hermelii, paris and karna, palinurus and daedelas. If anyone can point me in the right direction by posting positively ID'd photographs of the species explaining the differences it would be so greatly appreciated!
cheers
Ashley
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Post by bobw on Apr 24, 2014 4:46:19 GMT -8
P. krishna has a pale vertical line down the forewing, arcturus does not.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 24, 2014 7:00:28 GMT -8
Hi, It might sound like a silly question - but what features can I use to identify the difference between Papilio krishna and Papilio arcturus? I have long been interested in Australasian Papilionidae and have a reasonable handle on them but I am only a newby when it comes to Asian Papilionidae and I am looking at Papilio subgenus Achillides. Some species pairs appear very similar to the newby like me e.g. krishna and arcturus, polyctor and bianor, chikae and hermelii, paris and karna, palinurus and daedelas. If anyone can point me in the right direction by posting positively ID'd photographs of the species explaining the differences it would be so greatly appreciated! cheers Ashley Just for starters, polyctor and bianor are the same species ( polyctor is just the NW Himalayan subspecies of Papilio bianor), and similarly chikae and hermeli (note there is only one i at the end of hermeli) are the same species, hermeli was only described as a separate species to avoid the CITES problem. P. palinurus and daedalus (note spelling) are sometimes separated but often treated as subspecies of P. palinurus. A recent DNA study I was involved in suggests they differentiated long ago and may well be separate species. As for krishna and arcturus, the difference in the hindwing underside is obvious. krishna has a yellow postdiscal band inside the red submarginal lunules, whereas arcturus does not. I hope this helps a bit. Adam. |
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Post by ash on Apr 24, 2014 14:53:59 GMT -8
Thankyou Bob, Thankyou Adam, Very interesting, especially regarding Papilio hermeli. If you get a chance to post some pictures of P. arcturus and P. krishna side by side that would be great. The specimen of P. krishna that I have comes from Burma and is a very large and colourful insect, my P. arcturus are not yet mounted. When I 'google image' search these names I appear to be getting a mixture of species. Adam could you identify this pair attached below for me? They were obtained already spread and mounted (very well done in fact) in a collection and have data tags with Japanese writing on them but nothing I can read regarding identification or locality. They are very bright and beautiful but show up dark in this photograph as it is taken through the glass top of the case. cheers Ashley Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted |
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terry2014
Junior Member
Birthday April 14 1938
Posts: 33 
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Post by terry2014 on Apr 25, 2014 3:29:25 GMT -8
Hello Ash, If you go into the "links" section on this website, in the "Online Entomological Databasis" scroll down to "Papilionidae of the World" There are many photos of the Achillides group which should help you. Terry.
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Post by benihikage92 on Apr 25, 2014 7:21:41 GMT -8
Thankyou Bob, Thankyou Adam, Very interesting, especially regarding Papilio hermeli. If you get a chance to post some pictures of P. arcturus and P. krishna side by side that would be great. The specimen of P. krishna that I have comes from Burma and is a very large and colourful insect, my P. arcturus are not yet mounted. When I 'google image' search these names I appear to be getting a mixture of species. Adam could you identify this pair attached below for me? They were obtained already spread and mounted (very well done in fact) in a collection and have data tags with Japanese writing on them but nothing I can read regarding identification or locality. They are very bright and beautiful but show up dark in this photograph as it is taken through the glass top of the case. cheers Ashley They look like a pair of 1st generation Papilio dehaanii(bianor) hachijonis to me. Can you show us the labels? I'll read them for you. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 25, 2014 12:32:08 GMT -8
They look like a pair of 1st generation Papilio dehaanii(bianor) hachijonis to me. Can you show us the labels? I'll read them for you. Yes they do look like Papilio dehaanii, but I would hesitate to assign a subspecies without knowing the locality. Papilio dehaanii and Papilio bianor are different species, with true bianor found in the Yaeyama Islands (Ishigaki etc) close to Taiwan. The two species actually overlap in NE China. I crossed Papilio dehaanii with Papilio bianor from Laos, and found that the resulting hybrids were sterile, which confirms the DNA results. Adam. |
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Post by ash on Apr 28, 2014 21:56:45 GMT -8
Thankyou Beni, Terry and Adam, Here is a macro photograph of the label pinned on the Papilio dehaanii. I will keep this label on the specimens but would like to add another label that I can read the locality. Both specimens have the same label, the male is from 22 April 2009 and the female is from 30 April 2009. They are smaller than my Papilio bianor pinratanei and larger than my Papilio maackii.
thanks Ashley  |
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Post by benihikage92 on Apr 29, 2014 4:35:45 GMT -8
Thankyou Beni, Terry and Adam, Here is a macro photograph of the label pinned on the Papilio dehaanii. I will keep this label on the specimens but would like to add another label that I can read the locality. Both specimens have the same label, the male is from 22 April 2009 and the female is from 30 April 2009. They are smaller than my Papilio bianor pinratanei and larger than my Papilio maackii.
thanks Ashley The label reads "Hachijo-cho, Mt. Mihara, Tokyo, emerged April 30, 2009, the mother butterfly was caught by Jun Kikuchi." Yes, it is Papilio dehaanii hachijonis from Hachijo Island. As Adam said I wouldn't normally assign a subspecies without knowing where it was caught, but I was quite confident with this one.  Cheers |
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Post by ash on Apr 29, 2014 14:14:11 GMT -8
Thankyou! That is most appreciated! Ashley
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Post by ash on Jun 25, 2014 6:20:51 GMT -8
Hi, Could anyone assist with translating this Japanese label so that I can add an additional label? all the best Ashley  |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 25, 2014 7:47:16 GMT -8
I asked Inayoshi-san, and he translated as follows:
Gamouzaki, Kasari-machi, Amami-shi, Kagoshima-pref.
This locality is Amami-Oshima.
2013.Jun.11
ex. pupa
Nakata Masatake
Note that I think the second line is an explanation rather than a direct translation from the label, and also it is useful to know that Nakata is the family name of the collector. Japanese usually put their family name first and given name afterwards.
Adam.
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Post by ash on Jun 25, 2014 19:33:48 GMT -8
Thankyou Adam and Inayoshi-san for providing the translation. Ashley
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Post by johnsonsau on Oct 6, 2018 0:22:39 GMT -8
Hi, I am a novice here, can someone teach me how to correctly identify Papilio karna and Papilio paris? Many thanks in advance.
Regards,
Johnson
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 6, 2018 10:47:39 GMT -8
Generally, karna is larger than paris from Sumatra and Java and the inner edge of the blue hindwing discal patch is straighter, not reaching the cell (usually in Indonesian paris the patch enters the tip of the cell), also the submarginal green lunules below the hindwing patch are much better developed in karna than paris.
Adam.
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