saye
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Post by saye on Jan 19, 2015 13:49:55 GMT -8
I would like to get some clearing about the egg capacity/production of the ever grand O. alexandrae out of the two possibly contradicting facts, in two different papers by two different authors in two different times. In 1979, Straatman (here been called the birdwing guru with credit!), in a paper about the butterfly, wrote "On the basis that not more than 10 eggs had been laid before its capture, we can estimate a total capacity of 25 to 27 eggs." Presuming I'm not making the mistake of confusing egg production with literal egg-carrying capacity, this seems confusing when compared with the reference written by Parsons in 1992, where he states "if they live to enjoy an optimum life-span, O. alexandrae females are believed to be capable of laying at least 240 eggs". In any case, it seems odd that any butterfly would be capable of laying so slim a number eggs, on the other hand, despite odd, this would contribute to the species' particularly hard struggle. I'm nevertheless inclined to consider Parsons' information as the clear one, if nothing more then because it's more recent. Still, any idea on why this discrepancy exists?
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Post by eurytides on Jan 19, 2015 20:46:29 GMT -8
I too have found this strange. In general, 1% of butterfly eggs survive until adulthood to produce the next generation. So, one would estimate that on average, female butterflies can lay >200 eggs. I think Parsons' number is probably correct. Straatman's estimate comes from dissection of a female and counting the number of mature eggs. But a female butterfly doesn't eclose with 200+ formed eggs in its abdomen. They develop successively - that is, as some are laid, other eggs mature and enlarge to replace them. I think Straatman's dissection underestimates egg-laying capacity. Instead, what I think he's saying is perhaps the abdomen can hold a dozen or two mature eggs at any one time.
I'm interested to hear others' opinions on this also.
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Post by nomihoudai on Jan 20, 2015 0:48:18 GMT -8
There is two strategies in butterflies, the first is to hatch with all the eggs matured and not feed, e.g. Saturniidae, overwintering species, the other is to feed and mature eggs during an extended life span. Ornithoptera like to visit flowers and I don't know about 'winter', so I guess them to be in the latter category. This would then explain how you can find this extremely low estimate of 27 (which would indicate capacity of mature eggs) and over 240 which sounds more reasonable for such a big butterfly. Of course this is just a guess based on my knowledge, I do not have any experience in breeding Ornithoptera.
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saye
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Post by saye on Jan 23, 2015 11:01:05 GMT -8
I suppose that from your feedback the obvious thing to consider is that Straatman was referring to egg-carrying capacity and that the error of total estimate regarding laying capacity is too obtuse to consider upon such a devoted lepidopterist.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 24, 2015 1:00:48 GMT -8
I once collected and counted the eggs laid by a single female Papilio machaon from Belgium on fennel in a flight cage with plenty of flowers for nectar. Over about 10 days she laid over 400 eggs, which was many more than I had expected.
Adam.
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Post by wolf on Jan 24, 2015 8:41:50 GMT -8
Likewise, my Polyommatus amandus female laid 220 eggs. the last 20 or so eggs was not fertile, but still i was amazed how such a small butterfly could lay that amount of eggs!
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saye
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Post by saye on Jan 24, 2015 11:01:22 GMT -8
I took a look at another of Straatman's Ornithoptera papers regarding O. goliath and O. chimaera, and for the former he wrote: "Largest number of eggs counted in a female was 20, including immature eggs." This cuts away at the idea of O. alexandrae having a conspicuously low egg production capability and sets more clear that the author was simply referring to the female's total egg-carrying capacity at any given time. In this case, O. alexandrae has an actual larger capacity (and I imagine its abdomen would only be slightly bigger). So with this I think it's more than fair to say I raised a non-issue and that the two authors are simply referring to different things, as I attempted to safeguard on my initial post.
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cyane
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Post by cyane on Jan 24, 2015 23:49:06 GMT -8
This does not answer the original question, but I had a similar interest in the number of eggs laid by Ornithoptera victoriae. I dissected the abdomens of a female O v victoriae from Guadalcanal, a female O priamus urvillianus from Santa Isabel and a female O richmondia from Australia (all caught by myself and all somewhat worn). The victoriae had only 8 very large eggs, the urvillianus 30+ eggs and the richmondia 70+. I also had a captive bred richmondia lay 120+ eggs over several days. I once had a Papilio aegeus lay 365 eggs in a 3 week period whilst confined to a 2 litre container and fed sugar water twice a day. David Hall
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saye
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Post by saye on Jan 26, 2015 9:52:02 GMT -8
You seem to be raising the distinction between the mentioned Ornithoptera species's different-sized eggs, which one is bound to assume affects their total egg-carrying capacity. I do not have any palpable idea of the variation in the egg size of Ornithoptera. Though Straatman states (for diameter) 4.7mm, 4mm and 3.5mm for O. goliath, O. chimaera and O. alexandrae respectively. Straatman has a paper on the first two species you observed but he does not mention egg size. Now for the other part, I would have to disagree. The "initial question" was answered on account of confusion regarding O. alexandrae egg-carrying capacity and egg-laying numbers. The two authors must be referring to these different subjects by the reasons stated in the different posts. However... that would have been my final statement if I hadn't come across this, found here: " Contrary to the rarer species of Ornithoptera, which generally lay but few eggs, the female of O. priamus may lay as many as fifty eggs, which appears more than sufficient to ensure species survival." I am effectively confused by this since here the author seems the clearest in regarding the genus as notoriously producing few eggs, adding to the fact he pressed that O. priamus' capability of laying around 50 eggs is distinctive. Parsons' information then clashes here the most, as with a +240 capability, the rarest birdwing produces by far the most eggs. The incongruence seems obvious. Either I'm missing something here by rapid-reading these papers or the confusion not only persists as initially put, it increases. Addition; further statement (related to oviposition) by Parsons on his paper about O. alexandrae: "In PNG, the eggs of swallowtail butterflies whose larvae feed on A. tagala ( Atrophaneura polydorus, T. oblongomaculatus and O. priamus) are often subjected to between 50-90% mortality by a species of minute Ooencyrtus (Encyrtidae) parasitoid wasp. Other Ornithoptera are also known to suffer mortality at the egg stage from these parasitoid wasps, although none have yet been found to parasitize O. alexandrae eggs." Specific to PNG or not, that's a very high mortality rate, I would say as high as any butterfly species endures from all predation and parasitism.
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Post by krupten on Feb 26, 2015 18:50:55 GMT -8
if you can - here is my email - and I think if we can connect on Skype or similar I can explain this I hope - Ray was an old and dear friend and I spent a lot of time with him in Sogeri and he came to Canada to stay with me for a while before going to Sarasota and then to Vejle. SKYPE handle is krupten01 but email me before to set time and date and NOTE I am in Malaysia - so allow for the time differences - Cheers
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saye
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Post by saye on Feb 27, 2015 10:11:12 GMT -8
I'm curious as to what information you possess regarding the subject. Thank you for your availability.
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Post by krupten on Feb 27, 2015 15:55:03 GMT -8
I only know what I know from field experience and with collecting and discussing O. alexandrae for years with Ray. I can share if you like?
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