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Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 31, 2015 0:25:51 GMT -8
I am testing a hypothesis of the identity of this specimen:  It appears to be a natural hybrid of Papilio castor mahadeva with either Papilio polytes romulus or P. prexaspes pitmani, which are the two similar sized species to mahadeva that occur in the same locality. To test the hypothesis I made a handpairing between Papilio castor kanlanpanus female and P. polytes romulus male today. I used a Papilio castor female because she has much larger eggs than polytes.  It will be interesting to see whether the resulting hybrids look anything like the wild specimen. I will let you know what happens. Adam. |
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saye
Full Member
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Post by saye on Jan 31, 2015 6:04:52 GMT -8
Interesting. Quick question on hybrids within lepidotera (particularly butterflies, of course), are they in any instance fertile?
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Post by eurytides on Jan 31, 2015 10:24:38 GMT -8
Offspring fertility is a range, depending on how compatible the parents are. In some cases, offspring are totally infertile, usually very unrelated species that were forced to mate. Other species which are more closely related produce fully viable offspring which may sometimes even become new species in their own right. For example, it is now believed that Papilio appalachiensis is of hybrid origin (P. canadensis and P. glaucus).
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Post by joee30 on Feb 20, 2015 21:38:16 GMT -8
Eurytides, that would be very interesting if P.appalachiensis is a hybrid of P. glaucus and P. canadensis, but is P. canadensis found in the Appalachian Mts. In WV or VA?
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felixb
Junior Member
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Post by felixb on Feb 21, 2015 3:19:28 GMT -8
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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 21, 2015 3:32:49 GMT -8
Just to get this right, P.appalachiensis is NOT A HYBRID between P. glaucus and P. canadensis, it is a SPECIES OF HYBRID ORIGIN. These are two completely different concepts. If it was a hybrid there would be the need of P. glaucus and P. canadensis mating frequently, like for example in Europe Pelophylax "esculentus" (which is not a species). P. appalachiensis is a species on it's own with many individuals living in the area of occurence.
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felixb
Junior Member
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Post by felixb on Feb 21, 2015 3:46:07 GMT -8
you are right claude. it is of hybrid origin and breeds on by itself without the need of glaucus or canadensis.but who knews exactly? I guess some glaucus and canadensis are mating frequently and maybe the F1 offspring breeds on with appalachiensis or one of the parental species. evolution never stops and maybe we are still in the period where glaucus and canadensis are mixing up, but are already flying together with appalachiensis that has formed out from ancest hybrid pairings of both species.compareable with the populations of machaon on corse or sardinia which also have up to 3% genetics of hospiton due to genetic introgression from hybrids that pair naturally with one of the parental species.so in the area where the species meet each other, are possibly populations with mixed up genetics, even considered as pure glaucus or canadensis.
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Post by eurytides on Feb 21, 2015 11:03:48 GMT -8
P. glaucus and P. canadensis hybridized a long time ago (when their geographical distributions were much different) and gave rise to a self sustaining population which then diverged to form what we now call P. appalachiensis. P. glaucus and P. canadensis still hybridize today along a band crossing southern Ontario and mid Michigan. However, these hybrids do not look the same as appalachiensis.
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Post by joee30 on Feb 21, 2015 12:01:38 GMT -8
Oh I see. Thank you, Eurytides. To be honest, I always wondered if it was, and the specimens I've seen are huge. Just out of curiosity, but do you raise Zebra Swallowtails often?
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Post by eurytides on Feb 21, 2015 16:01:35 GMT -8
Yes, the P. appalachiensis we see now are huge compared to glaucus and canadensis, and the ranges of canadensis and appalachiensis no longer meet.
I do not raise Zebra swallowtails often. I like seeing life cycles of different species, so every year I'll concentrate on a few particular species I want to find in the wild and raise. Then next year I try to raise something else. If I happen to find some E. marcellus though, I will still raise it don't get me wrong, but I don't focus on it or go out looking for it especially. The last time I raised them was in 2011, but they are a beautiful species and I was thinking of focusing on them again perhaps next year.
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 7, 2015 8:36:51 GMT -8
Finally, after several attempts at making this cross I have a female castor that has been laying fertile eggs, and today the first 10 larvae hatched from the eggs laid 5 days ago. The female has been laying eggs every day, so hopefully at least some of the larvae will survive. Hybrid larvae can have problems during development.
I will keep everyone informed how I get on with these, and once the larvae reach 5th instar I will post some photos, as smaller instars should be similar to either parent. Only in the green 5th instar do the larvae of these species really look very different.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 16, 2015 9:19:28 GMT -8
The hybrid larvae just changed to 5th instar today, so here's a comparison with 5th instar larvae of both parents. Note that the parent larvae are both late 5th instar. I will post a photo of the hybrid late 5th instar in a few days. polytes: polytes x castor: castor kanlanpanus:    Adam. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 22, 2015 13:26:46 GMT -8
Here's the mature larva:  |
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 29, 2015 12:12:49 GMT -8
Things are progressing nicely and I now have over 20 male and 9 female pupae. One additional female pupa was parasitised despite protection. I think this was a rare case of the Chalcid pupal parasitoid infecting the larva when it shed its skin between 4th and 5th instar, as I saw a parasitoid next to a larva that had just shed its skin to 5th instar.
The first male pupa is starting to colour up, and hopefully will emerge successfully tomorrow. I will post a photo after it has emerged.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 30, 2015 11:39:04 GMT -8
Here are the snapshot photos of the hybrid that emerged tonight. It seems obviously more like polytes than the wild specimen at the top of the thread, although there are similarities. 5 more males will emerge tomorrow and it will be useful to see how variable the specimens are.   Adam. |
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