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Post by compsulyx on May 30, 2015 19:08:43 GMT -8
Congratulations for these hybrids specimens Adam, very interesting. I hope you will get more variations on the other specimens.
TS
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 31, 2015 7:50:04 GMT -8
Well, actually in one way I am hoping they all turn out rather similar, at least in some characters. That would enable me to be more confident that Papilio polytes is likely NOT the other parent of the natural hybrid.
Unfortunately I have never had livestock of the other main candidate parent of the natural hybrid, Papilio prexaspes pitmani, which is much less common than P. polytes, although not uncommon at the locality.
One thing I can say with some confidence from seeing the male hybrid is that the wild caught specimen is definitely a hybrid, rather than a wierd aberration of P. castor mahadeva.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 31, 2015 7:56:28 GMT -8
I just realised that I haven't posted the underside photo of the natural hybrid for comparison, so here it is:  |
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 31, 2015 13:06:39 GMT -8
Today another 5 males hatched and they were all obviously Papilio polytes hybrids, similar to the first specimen. They all had visible vestiges of the marginal white spots on the forewing edges particularly near the tornus (not present in the natural hybrid), as well as similarities in the hindwings.
As a result I am more confident that Papilio polytes is not one of the parents of the hybrid, which leaves P. prexaspes pitmani, P. helenus helenus and P. nephelus chaon as the other species which occur at Khao Soi Dao, Chantaburi, that could be the other parent. However only the first species is really a likely candidate judging by the appearance and size of the natural hybrid. Also, when I tried to cross female Papilio castor with P. nephelus chaon I was completely unable to make them pair successfully despite many attempts, which makes it less likely that these were the parents.
When a female pupa of the hybrid emerges I will post a picture.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 4, 2015 12:48:02 GMT -8
Today a female emerged, and it is rather interesting. Here are photos of the upperside and underside:   |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2015 13:20:04 GMT -8
Thanks for letting us follow along with the experiment, do you plan on testing other candidates?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 4, 2015 14:00:35 GMT -8
Unfortunately the only other realistic candidate, Papilio prexaspes pitmani, is much rarer and local in distribution with females being very hard to find indeed, so it is very unlikely that I will be able to test this species with Papilio castor any time soon. It may be possible to obtain a wild male and try to mate it with a female P. castor some time in future, but it will not be at all easy to obtain even a live male. This species does not live anywhere near Chiang Mai, so transportation of a live male would be an issue, basically an expedition would have to be mounted, and even then it is uncertain whether any live males would actually be found at all.
In reality though, elimination of the common Papilio polytes as the other parent of the natural hybrid only really leaves pitmani as the alternative. The other species of this group found at the locality of the natural hybrid, Papilio memnon, helenus and nephelus, do not appear to be the other parent, as there are no indications of characters belonging to those species in the hybrid. Papilio prexaspes pitmani is actually very similar in superficial appearance to P. polytes, but some characters of polytes present in all the male hybrids that have emerged from the cross I made are not present in the natural hybrid. The discal band of the hindwing of the natural hybrid is also rather intermediate in appearance between pitmani and castor mahadeva.
By the way, I am almost certain that P. castor mahadeva must have been the female parent rather than the male one, due to the relatively large egg of P. castor compared to other species in the group. If a male P. castor were to mate with a female of any other species except P. memnon the larvae would be unable to develop inside the eggs.
Adam.
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Post by timmsyrj on Jun 4, 2015 23:55:01 GMT -8
Excellent result with the female, looks very interesting, the males are obviously a little different from either parent but the female is more obvious.
Does memnon and helenus ever cross, if so it would be interesting to see their offspring.
Rich
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 5, 2015 12:15:48 GMT -8
Yes, they have been known to hybridise in nature. Papilio sakontala was named by Hewitson from a natural hybrid of helenus x memnon from Sylhet. Papilio walkeri Janson is another well known natural hybrid from South India, this time polytes x polymnestor. In both cases memnon and polymnestor must have been the female parent, as it would be impossible for larvae to hatch from eggs of the cross if these were males. The reason for this is the hybrid larval head capsule can only develop inside the egg of the species with the larger sized egg. The hybrid genes would code for a head capsule larger than the egg that the embryo larva is developing inside if the female parent was the one with smaller eggs, and they would die. The eggs of memnon and polymnestor are very much larger than those of helenus and polytes. Here's are GART pictures of the type of Papilio sakontala:    The type of Papilio walkeri does not seem to be online. Adam. |
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Post by timmsyrj on Jun 5, 2015 13:05:35 GMT -8
Have you ever tried to re produce this hybrid Adam?
Rich
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 5, 2015 13:44:25 GMT -8
Not yet, but it's on my "to attemp" list. I don't have any spare males of Papilio helenus at the moment. I have been trying to mate Papilio polytes males with P. memnon, helenus and nephelus females, but have not had any success yet. The last cross does occur as a natural hybrid in Borneo, and was named Papilio nubilus. A specimen can be seen here: www.swallowtails.net/P_nubilus.htmAdam. |
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Post by timmsyrj on Jun 5, 2015 23:50:09 GMT -8
Please keep us up dated with all your experiments, I for one find it fascinating, I'm not into these unnatural hybrid experiments with species that don't even occur in the same country but attempts to reproduce naturally occurring hybrids I do find interesting, even if the results are like this one, it produced an amazing female hybrid, but not the result you were after, your now pretty sure what the other parent species is, just a matter of getting one.
Rich
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