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Post by mantisboy on Apr 4, 2015 16:58:01 GMT -8
I never thought I'd see one of these for sale so obviously on eBay, but somebody evidently doesn't care about CITES! Attachments:
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Post by eurytides on Apr 4, 2015 20:29:19 GMT -8
I suppose there's the slim possibility that this specimen is pre-CITES?
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Post by papilio28570 on Apr 4, 2015 20:41:20 GMT -8
Advertisements like this always make me suspect USFW or other government agency is on a fishing expedition. It is illegal to try to buy one, so if you bid or buy via private message, they have you.
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Post by eurytides on Apr 5, 2015 14:15:58 GMT -8
So wait, if a specimen was obtained pre-CITES, is it still illegal to trade/sell/buy said specimen?
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Post by ornithorchid on Apr 5, 2015 16:15:09 GMT -8
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Post by ornithorchid on Apr 5, 2015 16:21:45 GMT -8
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Post by paradesia on Apr 5, 2015 21:38:33 GMT -8
Okay, I'll let 11amay slide because he/she likely has the merchandise. However, 9038anna just got reported so it is goodbye for him. Obvious scammer.
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Post by ornithorchid on Apr 6, 2015 5:13:54 GMT -8
For CITES I species even an offer itself is illegal. No metter if you are selling the specimen or also if you are looking for a specimens, both actions are illegal without a permitions from the government. Even if you are making a joke with an offer and you do not have the specimens, it is still illegal. It does not matter if it is pre-CITES specimen, in fact he offers it NOW and for that he needs a permit... It is not illegal to purchase or sale "CITES I-species" IF you obtained your specimens from a source that originates from a period BEFORE the classification date under "CITES I". I believe: If you obtained your specimen in 1950 (pre-CITES), then your specimen is perfectly LEGAL and you can sale it to anyone who wishes to purchase it. The only condition is to have a new permit (NOT a CITES-permit since you cant get a CITES for O. alexandrae) which states the "history" of your specimen". Could anyone elaborate/confirm on this? |
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Post by ornithorchid on Apr 6, 2015 5:29:20 GMT -8
RADUSHO please read what I wrote
If you obtained your specimen in 1950 (pre-CITES), then your specimen is perfectly LEGAL and you can sale it to anyone who wishes to purchase it.
The only condition is to have a new permit (NOT a CITES-permit since you cant get a CITES for O. alexandrae) which states the "history" of your specimen".
So I am correct in what I stated.
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Post by monasteria on Apr 6, 2015 5:50:12 GMT -8
Who should give you such a certificate? I am always willing to learn. If that were possible, lots of "pre Cites" specimens would show up o the market if you know what I mean...
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Post by ornithorchid on Apr 6, 2015 6:56:16 GMT -8
Rieunier (Auction House in Paris, FRANCE) had several O. alexandrae put for auction and SOLD. Specimens were sold with A CIC permit (one permit per specimen; unlike CITES export permit that would allow one permit for several specimens combined). www.rieunier-associes.com/html/fiche.jsp?id=2797627According to their website, and I will translate below: "Specimens from Appendix I will come with their CIC permit (Certificat Intra-Communautaire; EUROPE) ... Important notice: with this permit (required by CITES), the matching specimens can be sold/purchased and moved within Europe. However, these specimens can't be exported outside Europe. To export such specimens (outside Europe), get in touch with the nearest office qualified for CITES permits to obtain appropriate documents" For FRANCE, the office to contact is DIREN (http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/). And this where the paper work is starting... Imagine that you grand-father (lived in Europe) was an entomologist and traveled all around the world and obtained O. alexandrae before it was put under CITES. If you want to sale these specimens within Europe you will need to obtain CIC permit for each specimen you wish to sale. For doing so you will need to prove that they were obtained before CITES rules... HOW? No idea... Good faith, willing inspector in front of you who is having an unusual great day... However, if you bought a specimen with already a CIC permit coming with it (example of the Rieunier auctions), it become much easier to sale these within Europe and to apply for export permit. |
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Post by ornithorchid on Apr 6, 2015 8:41:22 GMT -8
First specimen list on eBay (china) is no longer available.
Second listing (from Russia) is still up for a pair of A1 specimen.
Bids at 21000$. Obviously people are playing this scam auction.
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Post by ornithorchid on Apr 6, 2015 8:43:22 GMT -8
Just removed.
I had such a rush... We should do that more often.
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Post by dynastes on Apr 6, 2015 9:23:36 GMT -8
From Russia also sale CITES I - Papilio homerus
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 6, 2015 10:32:10 GMT -8
For $21,000 I would want to protect myself and use a Letter of Credit to control payment.
That said, if I really wanted OA and had $21,000 I'd fly to PNG, buy a specimen for $1000, buy whatever export permit is required (figure $2000 should be plenty), coordinate with a local B-grade museum to import it as CITES I and then sell as surplus (figure $5000 profit should be convincing) and be done with it. Total out of pocket probably about $12,000. And no, I'm not going to coordinate this for anyone of say more about it.
Except that, if somebody is really serious, start calling universities and museums, see if they have a pair, and offer them $15,000. Or, if you have truly unique specimens, work a trade.
For that matter I think if somebody makes it known that they have $15,000 for OA, somebody within any given country will probably sell at that price. Go to insect shows with $15,000 in cash, start talking. There are plenty of 1960s specimens in USA and Europe, many still papered. I remember them appearing on sales flyers into the 1980s.
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