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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 7, 2015 12:33:11 GMT -8
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Post by bugboys3 on Jul 7, 2015 13:09:49 GMT -8
That is really cool Adam!
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Post by ornithorchid on Jul 8, 2015 20:03:23 GMT -8
Just impressive. Out of curiosity, do you run a butterfly farm business? Or is it just a side passion? Emmanuel
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 9, 2015 9:42:41 GMT -8
No, I don't run a business. I breed Papilionidae for my own research projects. Among other things I have been breeding about a dozen selected Papilio memnon lineages for more than 5 years. All of the stock originated from a number of pupae given to me by a friend in Wang Chin, Phrae which included offspring of a female my friend caught that must have been the result of a crossover within the 'supergene', as it had forewings like form butlerianus with a white streak along the lower edge, and hindwings of normal form agenor. I have been selectively breeding the various forms that have arisen from the original stock, and 'creating' new forms not normally found in the wild as a result (although they could theoretically occur if the right gene combinations were to occur). For example I obtained some specimens with more white than normal on the forewings, and have selectively bred those over several years to produce a mostly white female. Here's an example, but this is not as white as many: The gene pool produced the recessive form butlerianus after a couple of generations, as I expected, and also contained the standard but variable agenor and distantianus forms. Recently I crossed the 'super-white' agenor with distantianus, and am now selecting distantianus offspring with paler forewings for further breeding. Interestingly the forewing comes out intermediate, rather than either dark or white in this case. I have also been selecting distantianus forms crossed with a spotless agenor, which produce distantianus offspring with beautifully coloured hindwings with reduced black submarginal spots. Of course there is one obstacle to such breeding experiments - since the males are all the same I can only select females and mate them with males from the same lineage. I cannot tell whether the male carries the genes that I see expressed in the females, but generally after several generations there is a much higher likelihood that the males do carry the genes I am trying to select. Every so often I have to dilute the genes by crossing 2 of the lineages and selecting the offspring again in order to prevent excessive inbreeding. Adam.
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saye
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Post by saye on Jul 11, 2015 4:21:31 GMT -8
Peculiar specimen, did not know of such polymorphisms. About your interesting pursuit, do you have any kind of public record?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 11, 2015 10:06:42 GMT -8
The aim is to eventually publish a paper showing how selective breeding from a single population of a polymorphic species can lead to the production of a wide range of different phenotypes. Currently I am continuing the breeding experiments and plan to publish in a while, possibly in Butterflies (Teinopalpus).
Adam.
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saye
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Post by saye on Jul 18, 2015 0:48:47 GMT -8
I see. I am somewhat interested in understanding, though not trying to get you to spoil your results so far, if you're exploring a possible mimicry ring. Which is what it seems, rather then only the general variability of morphs.
Though not to the extremes of P. dardanus in African territories with its nymphalid models, P. memnon mimics Atrophaneura species with some variability, does it not? Related, if similar to P. dardanus, aren't P. memnon males on the whole supposed to have little variability, by all means, not being polymorphic?
Since you've been rearing the species for years now, I want to ask: is there any pupal colour variation? Or are all pupae green morphs despite adult variation? Sorry if this is in your paper to come, I'm curious.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 18, 2015 8:05:56 GMT -8
"I am somewhat interested in understanding, though not trying to get you to spoil your results so far, if you're exploring a possible mimicry ring."
Not really, sort of the opposite, I am exploring what can be achieved with phenotype by "unnatural" selection.
Indeed natural selection produces mimetic forms, since less of the butterflies that look like distasteful models are eaten by predators. Thus there are forms of subspecies agenor that mimic Atrophaneura varuna varuna and astorion females (form butlerianus), Atrophaneura varuna zaleucus female (form agenor) and Losaria coon (form distantianus).
The male does indeed occur in a single form and is generally regarded as non-mimetic, normally flying fast with a tumbling Papilio flight, but in reality when males stop to feed at flowers they change their behaviour to appear much more like Atrophaneura (note the dark colour with red at the base of the wings), and instead of flying fast they flutter like Troidini. Of course it would be difficult to fly fast and feed at the same time, so they use this mimetic pattern to discourage predators.
A closely related species, Papilio alcmenor, is also only supposed to be mimetic in the female, with the female being a very good mimic of Byasa polyeuctes. In fact the live male is also a very good mimic of male Atrophaneura varuna, and you really need to look twice when you see one mud-puddling to be sure which species it is.
Adam.
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saye
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Post by saye on Jul 18, 2015 10:28:24 GMT -8
"Not really, sort of the opposite, I am exploring what can be achieved with phenotype by "unnatural" selection."
Sorry, I did not phrase that properly. What I meant was that you were exploring variation already selected for in a mimicry ring, and building it up, so to speak, from there. Rather then, for example, selectively (artificially) breeding a species simply for bigger or smaller blotches, which can be done with any species. P. memnon exhibits great phenotypical variation; ultimately, this is so because of a mimicry ring. This was what I meant with "exploring a mimicry ring".
The male and female of P. alcmenor mimic different species, that's interesting. I am however unaware of how the troidines fly as per general. The only species I've seen flying is Iphiclides podalirius feisthameli, which flies quite like P. machaon in the characteristic beat-glide fashion.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 18, 2015 13:20:28 GMT -8
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Indeed P. memnon is an interesting subject for this type of study precisely because of the variation in phenotype that has arisen due to mimicry.
Iphiclides belongs to tribe Leptocircini (kite swallowtails) not Troidini. There aren't any representatives of the Troidini in Europe or Africa (except Pharmacophagus antenor in Madagascar).
Basically the Troidini beat their forewings quite fast over a rather narrow range above and below horizontal while holding their hindwings almost still - these are only normally used in flight for steering. This has the effect of making the aposematic wing pattern along with the often red body (note there are very few Papilio species with any red on the body itself, bootes in Asia and the anchisiades group in the Americas) highly visible.
Adam.
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saye
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Post by saye on Jul 18, 2015 14:21:00 GMT -8
Of course, I completely overlooked that and erred despite it being quite obvious. Which means I have no idea besides your description of the appearance of troidine flight. Interesting distinction.
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Post by robertdodd on Jul 21, 2015 2:41:15 GMT -8
What can i say but Amazing! so great to see what you have done Adam with that 1 that i caught so long ago. wonderful and keep up the great work that you do best wishes Rob
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 23, 2015 10:05:45 GMT -8
Rob,
Glad to see you are reading Insectnet. Yes, I can confirm that you were the originator of the superb Papilio memnon breeding stock, which has been more than just interesting. I am also quite surprised that I have managed to keep them going well for so long without adding any fresh specimens to help avoid inbreeding. I have had inbreeding problems with some other species, but only occasionally with this stock.
Adam.
PS. Do come and say hello when you get back to Thailand.
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Post by marcingajewski on Jul 23, 2015 12:18:23 GMT -8
Congratulations !!! Just WOW !!!
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Post by mothman27 on Jan 23, 2020 7:50:55 GMT -8
I was not aware that this could happen. If a bilateral polymorph can occur, is it possible to have a mosaic polymorph? If so, can someone share a photo please?
Thanks, Tim
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