calak
New Member
Posts: 2
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Post by calak on Nov 15, 2015 5:58:28 GMT -8
Hello, I have no idea what subspecies of Meandrusa are these two specimens. Collecting data: Sapa Mt, LaCai prov., Vietnam 07-08/2015, 1600m. Wingspan 78 mm and 96 mm. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 15, 2015 7:45:47 GMT -8
These are females of Meandrusa lachinus aribbas. This subspecies occurs from northern Burma across Yunnan to northern Vietnam. This subspecies reaches northwest Thailand, but subspecies sukitti occurs in Nan Province (the east side of north Thailand) and Laos, and the subspecies in southern Vietnam is helenusoides.
Adam.
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calak
New Member
Posts: 2
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Post by calak on Nov 15, 2015 8:33:47 GMT -8
Thank you Adam for your reply. I have thought it was Meandrusa sciron ssp. The females are very diffrient. At the top of the photo there is pair Menadrusa lachinus aribbas, below on the left there is Meandrusa sciron male from China and probably the pair? from Sapa Mt. witch is very similar to Meandrusa sciron. Attachments:
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 15, 2015 13:24:23 GMT -8
Oops, yes, you are right it is M. sciron. My brain did record that it looked strange for aribbas female but I was put off by the locality. I should have looked more carefully and put my brain into gear before replying, sorry. [See everyone, we all make mistakes!  ] I am very surprised to hear that sciron could be found in Sapa. It is only known from Hagiang, the only province of Vietnam that is truly biogeographically part of the Chinese plateau. Personally I would actually suspect that the data is incorrect, and these specimens actually came from Hagiang. Can you confirm with the supplier that there was no error? Sapa really is in the wrong part of northern Vietnam for M. sciron, although I guess you never know. Adam. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 15, 2015 13:48:12 GMT -8
I forgot to mention that the subspecies of M. sciron from Hagiang, Vietnam is hajiangensis Funahashi, 2003.
Adam.
PS. Is the second specimen actually a male? It could be, judging by the pattern, but it is hard to see the genitalia in the photos.
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Post by teinopalpus on Nov 16, 2015 5:16:43 GMT -8
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 16, 2015 8:47:29 GMT -8
I asked a contact in Kunming about the distribution of M. sciron in Yunnan, and he replied that it is known from as far south as Dawei Shan, which is north of the Red River valley not so far from Sapa, but in the next mountain range across the valley. It is not yet known from mountains on the south side of the Red River valley in Yunnan, and this valley is a barrier separating many butterfly species and subspecies. It is possible that M. sciron has been able to cross the valley, and it will be very interesting to obtain definitive information on this.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 18, 2015 14:07:36 GMT -8
Looking again at the photos, I think that I may actually have been right the very first time, and these are Meandrusa lachinus aribbas. The wing and tail shape just don't look like M. sciron. Compare the specimens in the group photo in calak's reply, with a true M. sciron at the bottom left, which has shorter less spatulate tails than the pair of M. lachinus above or the strange pair from Sapa to the right. M. sciron almost always has similar tails to the one bottom right in the photo, and is distinctly smaller than M. lachinus. Also the male from Sapa (middle bottom row) lacks the complete discal band of M. sciron, and is in reality only slightly better marked with orange than some M. lachinus males. At the same time the female really does look like a lachinus female without the white discal patch, rather than a sciron female without the orange discal band. In any case these are very interesting specimens, and if my re-evaluation is correct then it is possible they did come from Sapa after all. Adam. PS. The specimen on sale here: www.ebay.com/itm/85570-Unmounted-Moth-Butterfly-Vietnam-NORTH-/252172706308#ht_2304wt_1533that teinopalpus linked to above definitely looks like lachinus with a lot of orange on the forewings, rather than sciron. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 20, 2015 0:29:55 GMT -8
I sent the link to this thread to Yutaka Inayoshi (Butterflies in Indo-China yutaka.it-n.jp/index.html ) and Shao-ji Hu (Yunnan University, Kunming) and they both agree with my opinion that these are actually M. lachinus. Inayoshi-san said that the male is quite similar to lachinus from Darjeeling. Shao-ji Hu said: "I agree with your identification, this is a tricky specimen of lachinus aribbas, which developed bright orange spots. However, the spots of lachinus aribbas are highly variable, ranging from none to well defined. But the size and shape of tail are more promising. Interestingly, I have a male sciron from Dongchuan with lachinus-like tails, but not the same after all. By the way, it's the forth time of me seeing this type of weird lachinus, one from S. Vietnam, the rest from Sapa." Adam. |
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Post by teinopalpus on Nov 20, 2015 2:16:19 GMT -8
Thank you Adam,
Those Meandrusas on EBay were really interesting and some with really developed orange spots , some less. It is fine to have confirmation they are variation of lachinus aribbas.
But that female without white patch is something unique for me, never saw anything like that.
Jan
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Post by exoticimports on Nov 20, 2015 6:52:20 GMT -8
Adam, I have truly enjoyed your argument with yourself!
"Once I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken."
Chuck
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 20, 2015 7:56:44 GMT -8
Glad you liked it, Chuck. I like your summary, very amusing.
The important thing is that I seem to have got to the correct answer eventually, and if it helps calak and all the other readers, that is what really matters.
"But that female without white patch is something unique for me, never saw anything like that."
Jan,
You are so right there. I also have never seen a female aribbas that looks anything like this one. ALL other females have a distinct white discal patch on both forewings and hindwings, like the specimen at top right of calak's subsequent photo. calak is very lucky to have obtained such a rare specimen.
Adam.
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Post by timmsyrj on Nov 21, 2015 4:31:50 GMT -8
I have had very many dealings with Thanh for Stichophthalma species as many of you will know, I have questioned the data on most of his specimens and found quite a few mislabelled specimens, very infuriating when I'm trying to establish distribution of these on my website, the un identified Stichophthalma species on there had a Sa Pa mountain data label on it which is where my original target species ( neumogeni regulus ) flies, he sent one specimen to me that his collectors caught, when I set it I realised this wasn't in fact regulus but totally different, when questioned I descovered it comes from Huang Lien N.P, Lai Chau province, collected by his Sa Pa catchers, I enquired about the Agehana elwesi he's had and apparently these are from another dealer he's traded with, he has no catchers himself operating in Hagiang, the data is not 100% reliable unfortunately except on those he gets himself, his catchers are covering quite an area but the data is their base/home.
Rich
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Post by Adam Cotton on Nov 21, 2015 10:17:56 GMT -8
At least Thanh is prepared to help check the data when asked.
It is difficult for a dealer to know when his catchers bring him specimens from somewhere other than their normal collecting place unless they actually tell him, and most catchers don't even realise that the place of capture is important.
I was very amused maybe 8 years ago when Greg Watson phoned me up very excitedly from a local Chiang Mai dealer's house claiming that he had just got a specimen of Graphium phidias from Wiang Papao, Chiang Rai Province. I didn't believe him of course, as phidias is only found on the mountain range between Laos and Vietnam, not in NW Thailand, never mind the fact that it was the wrong time of year for phidias. Greg said that the local catcher from Wiang Papao had brought it to sell at the dealer's, so it must be true (talk about gullible!). So I talked to the dealer in Thai and asked her to question the catcher about the origin of the phidias, and sure enough a local catcher from Sam Neua, NE Laos (where Graphium phidias does occur) had been to visit Wiang Papapo and given him the specimen. Of course the local catcher didn't want to keep it, so he took it to sell in town.
Adam.
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Post by timmsyrj on Nov 22, 2015 9:07:51 GMT -8
It is possible it's a new sub species, obviously more specimens from this area would be needed to be sure it's not an abberation or form but both male and female are different to normal arribas as can be seen in the group photo, plenty of other new sub species have been coming out of Vietnam recently, including a new sub species of this in helenusoides in 2003.
Rich
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