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Post by mothman27 on May 7, 2016 4:38:44 GMT -8
I recently ordered some bugs through ebay from a foreign country(having done this before). The package was refused clearance to the US for an unknown reason. The insects were dead Odontolabis and Hexatharius, obviously unprotected and not on the CITES list. Does anyone know why they would not be cleared?
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Post by Paul K on May 7, 2016 4:48:46 GMT -8
Bad mood of US custom officer
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Post by mothman27 on May 7, 2016 5:10:50 GMT -8
Do you think it would happen again?
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 5:22:40 GMT -8
This is THE most frustrating part of this hobby. I have long since not renewed my license and have not imported for years now. Hopefully you have a license and filled out a Form 3-177, for if you did not, not only might it be stopped, but they may inform you that a license ($100) per year is required and the form needs to be done up. Good luck.
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Post by ornithorchid on May 7, 2016 12:46:22 GMT -8
Two months ago, I ordered from Germany (done this 4X before, same source). I received the package, with a note inside stating that the normal process was not followed: the Form 3-177 was not on file. They were kind enough to file it for me and reminded me that this form is mandatory. It was the first time I heard about the 3-177. Too many (useless) rules to put (regular) people into trouble. They should go for the real FISH in the pond.
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Post by mothman27 on May 7, 2016 13:05:22 GMT -8
I too have imported dead material two times before this(through ebay)with no problem without form and no one told me anything. I figured that if a form was needed, ebay, or someone, would notify me. Does the form have to be shipped with the package? Where do I send the completed form? I would gladly have filled it out if I knew about it.
Is the $100 licence mandatory?
Thank you, Tim
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 14:43:26 GMT -8
See if u can find this subject in past posts. It all is quite lengthy to write out each time. If u cannot find any, call me.
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Post by mothman27 on May 7, 2016 15:57:53 GMT -8
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Post by trehopr1 on May 7, 2016 23:30:32 GMT -8
Some common knowledge to pass along here. When you order something off of EBay and are knowingly purchasing something which is coming from anywhere outside of the U.S. --- you risk not only having it confiscated and or held; you risk the monetary loss. I'm sure there are some sort of forms to fill out but, none of that matters if the seller is a well known dealer who is also known to dabble in the illicit sales of bats, lizards, and amphibians as well ! Many sellers overseas particularly from S.E.Asia will sell just about anything that walks,crawls,or flies for a buck (insect or otherwise). I believe fully that U.S.F+W in conjunction with the postal service has probably "tagged" many of the more prolific dabblers in wildlife sales. Should their address or business name come up they are automatically sorted to the side. Occasionally an anomaly lets them get thru. The point is that I have in fact seen some dealers post warnings next to their specimen descriptions declaring "this item may be seized by your authority". So that tells you right away they know they have been tagged or that they know they may be selling something questionable or even knowingly illicit. Why risk it ? And quite frankly the old worn out phrase of "I did'nt know" there was a form to fill out or that a monetary fee was involved in the package processing is really worn out. It's been used too often. Stay on the GOOD side of F&W and order your specimens thru what few accredited dealers remain here in the U.S. They have paid for the privilege of selling their insect wares and they won't sell anything questionable. Their pricing may reflect this fact but, doing what you have been doing (even if only 2 or 3 times) still means you have attempted to circumvent proper due process and F&W does not take kindly to that. Tread lightly in these matters grasshopper.
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Post by morphonut on May 8, 2016 5:03:00 GMT -8
Trehopr1 brings up some very good points but it gets even more complicated. Most of us here in the US are now aware of the legal situation of importing specimens from overseas and try to have permits in order. However, some foreign dealers are aware of our strict laws and use insidious and unscrupulous tactics to make overseas sales. There is currently a dealer from "Garland, Texas" who sells Mexican material on ebay saying specimens are already here in the US. This puts buyers at ease and probably increases sales. I ordered in good faith. However, when my parcel came to my home recently it arrived via DHL from MEXICO. Fortunately it arrived safely without permits but if there had been an inquiry I might have lost my money and the specimens. More importantly I would have had my good name "tagged" and future parcel inquiries as well as more scrutiny coming home across the border from an overseas trip would likely take place. All this because I was misled by a "domestic" dealer. This is because overseas dealers can write any country they want on their ebay source country status. So this is what it has come to....If you attend any of our insect fairs here in the US the vast majority of people are families with naive children thinking about the insect hobby. Many serious older collectors here have given up the hobby because of the legal implications. In Europe and Japan the people at the fairs are mostly adults who do not have to worry because they know that their governments will not prosecute them for collecting insects. It has all tightened up here in the US in the last 20 years or so and I hate to see the way it is heading. What's next prison terms.......
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Post by alandmor on May 8, 2016 8:21:11 GMT -8
I too have imported dead material two times before this(through ebay)with no problem without form and no one told me anything. I figured that if a form was needed, ebay, or someone, would notify me. Does the form have to be shipped with the package? Where do I send the completed form? I would gladly have filled it out if I knew about it. Is the $100 licence mandatory? Thank you, Tim Follow the "Policy" link in the InsectNet.com web page header for info and links to USDA, USFW and CITES import requirements: www.insectnet.com/policy.htm
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2016 11:38:50 GMT -8
Trehpor1 and morphonut indeed have good true points. Let's make it real simple and call it like it is. Bear in mind that I used to import quite a few times a year and had a license to do so. Not now.......I refused to pay the doubled license fee w no improvements, increases in fees for CITES II stuff, have brokers mandatory, and to be treated as though I'm a thug. If it ain't sold here, I ain't getting it.
1. The USFW WILL eventually require most all to get a commercial license. They have no concept of scientific values, collections of private collectors and they assume everyone is trying to break the law. Call three offices and you'll get three different bits of procedural advice:(. Having more than a few specimens imported more than once means you ....must....be a dealer in their eyes.
2. Each and every bug going into or out of the US must must have a 3-177 form with it.. Buy a $1 butterfly and don't provide a form and bam.....you're done......or could be if the package gets stopped. E decs used to work, but are not guaranteed to be accepted and the pending stage can be quite lengthy.
3. If you dare to buy CITES II material and you'll have to pay fees for such inspections even with a commercial license. A $12 common birdwing will cost (when last I looked) nearly $200 in fees.....CITES fees from USFW + brokerage fees. Buy 1000 $12 common birdwings and the same $200ish fees apply. It pays to buy in bulk, but is expensive for us little guys.
4. The USFW say not to use the mail, but still have a mail data entry point on the form. Those honest people who take a package in for inspection have often been treated like a criminal with Gestapo-like treatment. Really now.....one gets a mailed package in wo inspection and takes it in to the USFW office to do the right thing and they think YOU somehow are violating the laws. How many crooks are going to take a package in for inspection? Really now......
5. Simply put, they don't work for us like they're supposed to.......they want to put an end to this hobby. Btw.....if an EBay seller should list the item location as in the USA, print out that page and keep it. If you do have your package stopped, at least you'll be able to show them that you did not willingly try to sneak it in.
The good old days of this hobby are gone gone and gone:(. Be careful w buying from outside the US and keep very detailed records. Oh.....is prison already a part of their operation? Yes it is. I personally know of three cases of prison time sentences. While this is a great country to live in, there are serious problems.........one big one being the USFW law enforcement. I'm going to sign off now as I'm feeling my bp rising.
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Post by exoticimports on May 9, 2016 4:10:15 GMT -8
After more than a dozen years I gave up my USFWS license. I had it because I found it easier to import scientific material on a commercial permit than get a scientific permit every time. Alas, USFWS hassled me so much I just gave up. Let somebody else do the scientific work and museum supplier, I made my contribution.
But one has to remember, USFWS doesn't have the same goals as scientists. Their ultimate goal, like that of all US government agencies I can think of, is employment.
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Post by Chris Grinter on May 9, 2016 5:41:06 GMT -8
Using a scientific permit to import specimens you've purchased is never going to fly in the eyes of USFWS. Even if you end up doing research on those specimens and even if you're a published scientist - they are commercial specimens and must be imported as such. Things could have ended up a lot worse than you just leaving frustrated.
If you need to purchase specimens and import them you could potentially buy specimens and donate them to a local entomology collection. As a condition of that donation they have to import them and do the 3-177 so they could be shipped to that museum under a legitimate scientific exemption and you could then borrow the specimens back for your research. This would have to be done honestly, and the specimens would actually have to become the property of that museum, which you would return to them as per whatever appropriate loan agreement is reached.
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Post by exoticimports on May 9, 2016 10:34:09 GMT -8
Using a scientific permit to import specimens you've purchased is never going to fly in the eyes of USFWS. Even if you end up doing research on those specimens and even if you're a published scientist - they are commercial specimens and must be imported as such. Things could have ended up a lot worse than you just leaving frustrated. If you need to purchase specimens and import them you could potentially buy specimens and donate them to a local entomology collection. As a condition of that donation they have to import them and do the 3-177 so they could be shipped to that museum under a legitimate scientific exemption and you could then borrow the specimens back for your research. This would have to be done honestly, and the specimens would actually have to become the property of that museum, which you would return to them as per whatever appropriate loan agreement is reached. A scientific import permit often requires a scientific export license, which often requires a written letter of association with a recognized (and sometimes snooty) museum. The self-motivated amateur scientist/ explorer is unlikely to get any such letter. Commercial export permits, on the other hand, typically do not differentiate between self-captured and locally purchased specimens. In fact, it is highly unlikely that anyone researching overseas won't buy specimens from enterprising locals. Thus, when I had my license I would lawfully export from origin w/ a commercial license, and import into USA with a commercial license. Then, there was nothing prohibiting me from disbursing the specimens to museums and serious amateurs at no or low cost. That wasn't the problem I had with USFWS. It was being treated like a criminal (how do we know this license isn't something you made? Well, we'll just call that country's wildlife office (the phone number for which hasn't been updated in USFWS records in five years), and seized/bonded packages even though USFWS repeatedly told me "you did nothing wrong." Nope it was bureaucrats and tough-guy "law enforcement" types who justified their jobs by making my work miserable. Not all were bad; but I'd say about half were, particularly the AICs who were arrogant, rude, and lawless. Maybe it's the job- the younger USFWS agents took interest in my research and specimens, while it seemed the older "management" types cared only about making a bust if they could find some way. Sad. And thus we find ourselves with a small package of common stuff, already dead, refused entry because somebody didn't fill out some form. Chuck
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