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Post by beetlehorn on Apr 12, 2018 11:52:46 GMT -8
I was wondering if anyone knows which countries in Europe allow collecting of insects such as Lepidoptera and Coleoptera. I know for example that Germany has a red list of species such as Parnassius apollo, that are on this list, and I understand it is under CITES app.2 protection. Occasionally I see European species for sale on various sites that are from countries such as Hungary or Spain, so I assume these countries allow collecting, (but I could be mistaken).
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Post by wollastoni on Apr 12, 2018 13:34:30 GMT -8
It is 2 different topics: - many European countries are science friendly so you can collect in France, in Italy and many other ones. Some require some collecting permits which are not hard to obtain like Spain. Each country has a national list with few protected species.
- Parnassius apollo is a CITES2 species and protected by the European Union laws. So impossible to sell without CITES permits (which won’t be delivered for private collectors).
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Post by nomihoudai on Apr 12, 2018 23:37:44 GMT -8
This should be a trivial question, but it isn't. Not at all. The problem comes from the many different countries and their own national legislation in their national language. I will give my best to answer this question, but bear in mind that I haven't even read the majority of legislation as I am unable to read it. On the other hand it is good to have a different legislation in each country, as Europe has a divide between the Mediterranean region and the northern countries. Furthermore Europe has a heavily populated central region (Rhine valley, Belgium, Netherlands), and less populated outer regions (Spain, Balkans). The two most important topics are the treaties and conventions, and the other one being the national legislature. The two most important conventions in Europe are the Washington Convention (-> CITES) and the Bern Convention. In a convention countries agree to a goal and they sign that they will make laws to apply the agreed goals. And this is the source for the next problem and confusion,... some countries may sign a convention, but never turn the convention into a law that applies within the country... Anyway, to ratify CITES within the countries of the EU we have the council regulation with the beautiful name of "Council Regulation (EC) No 338/97". It does not have CITES appendix I, II and III, but it has its own Annex A, B and C. Why did they need a new name? Well they moved species between appendix I, II and III and added a few here and there. So to answer your subquestion. Parnassius apollo is on CITES II and could be traded, but in Europe it is within Annex A and cannot be traded in Europe unless it is an old specimen. eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31997R0338The Bern Convention is the next important one, because even the majority of countries that don't have long lists of protected species (France, Belgium, etc.) based their small lists of protected species onto that convention. The insects are on Appendix II of that convention. www.coe.int/en/web/conventions/full-list/-/conventions/treaty/104 and rm.coe.int/168078e2ff One famous example would be Lycaena dispar. And then comes the long list of national laws in each country. Most of them actually do have small lists. I can see that Denmark is supposed to not have any insects protected by national law. Also Italy and France like Olivier mentions. Another example, even tough non-EU is Switzerland. The two most extensive sets of national laws are to be found in Luxembourg and Germany. In Luxembourg every Rhopalocera is protected unless the genus Pieris. In Germany most Lepidoptera are protected except a list of about 18 species (when I remember correctly). In Germany all Lycaenidae are protected as every occuring genus of Lycaenidae is protected genus-wide... Germany is also the only country to my knowledge that prohibits specimen of nationally occuring species (like Papilio machaon) that have been LEGALLY caught abroad. Ok to wrap this somehow up, the following countries have no or only small list of protected Lepidoptera (and Coleoptera? I'm not an expert there!): Albania, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Malta, Romania. Cases like Hungary I cannot comment as I don't understand the national laws and have no source stating that there isn't any national legislature. This list is no legal advise and can contain errors. Read more in depth here: www.insectes.org/opie/pdf/1393_pagesdynadocs4b8fc066cedec.pdf Lastly, even tough I mentioned that Luxembourg and Germany have the most strict national laws it has always been easy to obtain permits. Also in my whole lifetime I have never been denied a collecting permit for a country when I applied for it. I wish there was an easier answer to all of this, but 50 years of wild legislation from different political bodies have rendered the situation very complicated. But the same also applies to the US where I get confusing answers from people concerning the trade of live Saturniidae eggs across state borders.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2018 0:16:14 GMT -8
As far as the UK is concerned I wouldn't bother, we only have 58 resident species half of which you can't touch and for the other half which you can you will be confronted by the wailing, squealing PC greenie nut jobs who have taken over anything remotely connected to wildlife, that's it you can find any greenery here as everything is covered in concrete.
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Post by beetlehorn on Apr 13, 2018 2:17:11 GMT -8
Thanks for the replies. The reason I was asking this question is because if I ever make a trip to Europe, I would be visiting some friends and family in Germany. While there I would visit some of the places I collected insects at during the 1970's. I know that was a long time ago, and I'm sure things have changed since then. i assume butterfly numbers are probably not as numerous now as back then, but I could be wrong. I still speak and read German fairly fluently, so language would not be a problem.
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Post by nomihoudai on Apr 13, 2018 2:48:12 GMT -8
There is a list of about 18 common species of Rhopalocera that you can legally collect. The only problem is that Germany only gives lists of what is protected and not what is free to go. So you or someone has to compile it. The database with the legislature is currently down and you can't search in it. It used to be under wisia.org/index.en.html.
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Post by wollastoni on Apr 13, 2018 3:40:52 GMT -8
i assume butterfly numbers are probably not as numerous now as back then Yes, butterfly populations in W. Europe are collapsing everywhere where agriculture is intensive (pesticides, monoculture...). But if you go to a mountainous area or in large forests, you will see plenty of butterflies ! This said, in Western Europe, the best countries for collecting (number and diversity of butterfly species) are Southern countries : Spain, South France, Italy. The Alpes ares excellent too (France, Switzerland, N. Italy, Austria).
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Post by wollastoni on Apr 13, 2018 4:10:47 GMT -8
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Post by Paul K on Apr 13, 2018 5:10:29 GMT -8
Poland is also good for collecting, it is free to collect and only few species are protected. Saying that I haven’t been there nor collect for more then 20 years, but I visit Polish insect forum from time to time.
Paul
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Post by miguel on Apr 13, 2018 6:11:20 GMT -8
Here in Spain you need permits issued by diferents administrations,if you want to collect inside a natural Park you have to talk with the management of that Park.
For example in Andalucia there are more tan 40 species of Lepidoptera that you cann´t collect even common species are protected with nosense and here in the place that I live very common specie as Euphydryas aurinia is protected,I don´t know the way they choose to select the species to protect.
Miguel
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Post by Paul K on Apr 13, 2018 7:42:52 GMT -8
I don´t know the way they choose to select the species to protect. Miguel Me too! In Ontario-Canada someone decided to protect all 8 species of Papilionidae, which are common as P.rapae except two which are common south in US, but rare here. They got protection for their beauty not for endangered status, same D.plexippus which is common as weed got protection for its international status rather then endangered species. Note that this non-sense law applies only in one province, rest of Canada is free to collect those Papilionidea.
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Post by wollastoni on Apr 13, 2018 7:55:07 GMT -8
Yes, most protection lists have some "nonsense" inside. Every national entomologist associations should tackle that issue and rework these protection lists which were built 50 years ago. Some protected species are very common, some rare species are not protected, it is ridiculous. The French Lepidopterist Association (ALF) is working to improve the French protection list with current scientific knowledge. It would be a great improvement. I would add that those list should help protect the habitat of these butterflies. It is very rarely the case. One recent good news though : a huge real-estate program in a sky resort of the French Alpes has been cancelled because Parnassius apollo was flying there : that's real protection. france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/auvergne-rhone-alpes/isere/tribunal-administratif-grenoble-interdit-agrandissement-alpe-huez-1354037.html
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Post by miguel on Apr 13, 2018 8:03:05 GMT -8
They make the list and even they don´t make a review of the names they put in the lists,almost every year since last ten years I go to the mountains that make the frontier between Spain and France,I ask for a permit(Aragón community) and in the list they send me of protected species they always repeat the wrong spell in Satyrium pruni,for them is Satyrium runiand they haven´t solved the mistake for years.
Miguel
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Post by Paul K on Apr 13, 2018 9:01:08 GMT -8
They make the list and even they don´t make a review of the names they put in the lists,almost every year since last ten years I go to the mountains that make the frontier between Spain and France,I ask for a permit(Aragón community) and in the list they send me of protected species they always repeat the wrong spell in Satyrium pruni,for them is Satyrium runiand they haven´t solved the mistake for years. Miguel So legally Satyrium pruni is not protected there. I assume that they made a list using computer spelling correction and “smart” software automatically change the name. Paul
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Post by miguel on Apr 13, 2018 10:55:27 GMT -8
Yes Paul,I think they make the list that way.
I think that there are around only 20 specimens collected of Satyrium pruni in the north of Spain,is one of the most rare specie of Lycaenidae here in Spain.
Miguel
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