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Post by somewhatpeculiar on Mar 22, 2011 3:47:44 GMT -8
Which subspecies of Machaon do you consider exists in Scandinavia? (As it's not lapponica as explained by Adam Cotton)
After comparing photos and my own livestock I see no difference between different machaons in different parts of Sweden.
After comparing photos I find on the web of papilio machaon gorganus (mid and south europe) with the Swedish specimens I see no significant difference between them either. To me they all look to be from the same species.
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Post by Ascalaphus on Mar 22, 2011 5:20:01 GMT -8
Lapponica is a synonym for the nominate ssp. machaon from Sweden and Norway. In Denmark there are no populations and strays could be from both German (gorganus) and Swedish (machaon) origin I think.
I obtained a number of Swedish machaon pupae a while ago and I'm looking forward on rearing the ssp this year. My Swedish pupae clearly differ from my Swiss pupae in ground colour (pale) and markings (very intense in brown pupae). However, I don't know if a separation between gorganus and ssp. machaon is justified.
There are few ecological barriers for P. machaon in Europe, mountains are no real barrier. So I think that many described subspecies from Europe (like emisphyrus, tertiana, gigantea, hispanicus, pseudobigeneratus) are just forms, caused by local environmental factors at most.
Regards, Klaas
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Post by Adam Cotton on Mar 22, 2011 6:24:02 GMT -8
Klaas,
Brilliant! It seems that you have a similar hypothesis to me, and we are both examining this by breeding experiments. My Swedish machaon are laying eggs at the moment, and I will be very interested to see if they become multivoltine under hot climatic conditions, and whether their phenotype alters as a result of rearing them under non-native conditions.
I am also rearing machaon from Malta, Italy, Austria and Japan at the moment, and made crosses between Austrian machaon with hippocrates and Swedish machaon with hippocrates to test the Japanese theory that they are separate species. Currently the larvae of these 'hybrids' are starting to pupate. I have also made a cross between machaon brevicauda male from Quebec and Austrian machaon female, which laid on carrot and these are starting to pupate too. Interestingly the opposite cross, using brevicauda female was a total failure because the brevicauda female refused to lay eggs on fennel, carrot, celery and some other Apiaceae or even Ruta. I think I must try to obtain seeds of the local hostplant and grow those before trying again next year. Of course the next stage with all the hybrid crosses is to check the sex ratio of the hybrids and test their fertility at the next generation to see if they really are the same species as DNA studies suggest.
Of the names you mention above, only emisphyrus and hispanicus are available names, the other 3 (tertiana, gigantea, and pseudobigeneratus) are all infrasubspecific like lapponica. I am strongly inclined to agree with you that all of the European mainland machaon (including the eastern Mediterranean too) belong to the same subspecies, with britannicus and melitensis as distinct local subspecies. I am not certain yet whether gorganus should be retained as the name for this subspecies, or the whole of European machaon be regarded as ssp. machaon. Hopefully the results of my breeding experiments will help clarify this, but my instinct is that they are all the same population in reality, at least they were in the very recent past (unfortunately European butterfly populations have declined so much over the past 100 years of industrialisation that there are often only scattered isolated populations where they used to be much more widespread).
Adam.
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Post by jrlaiho on Mar 22, 2011 12:11:52 GMT -8
Adam, indeed it would be interesting to see if Swedish machaon become multivoltine under hot climatic conditions. As you might know, P. machaon has a rare second generation in both Sweden and Finland in hot summers (possibly in Norway, but I know of no records). Obviously these are just single specimens, not a complete generation as abundant as the first one. The interesting question is will most of them go into diapause despite hot climate conditions, or will they readily develop into a new generation. I have bred larvae found in nature (S Finland) a number of times (mostly found as medium or full sized larvae). Breeding and keeping the pupae in room temperature has not produced any second generation specimens.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Mar 22, 2011 12:47:14 GMT -8
Perhaps the larvae didn't get enough daylight in your room. The trigger to initiate diapause is for 5th instar larvae to receive daylength of less than 10 hours per day. It seems that the daylength for smaller larvae is not critical, only the 5th instar.
In fact I will have to use this method to artificially induce diapause in May, as machaon cannot survive the rainy season here from May to October, as it is too wet and humid. I will put them in an airconditioned room with lighting for only 8 hours per day which should trigger diapause, then put the pupae in the fridge until late October when I will bring them out to continue my breeding experiments. Our winter temperatures in December-January are about 20-25C with bright sunshine most days, so they should breed well then. Right now its 30C+ every day, and the Swedish machaon don't seem to mind that at all. Hopefully they won't mind the 40C temperature in April!
Perhaps you can answer one interesting question, in natural conditions in Scandinavia how long does the larval stage (from hatching to pupation) last? The adults of Swedish machaon are very large, and I suspect this is a result of relatively lower temperatures at the larval stage, so they grow slowly and eat more as a result. The current generation of hippocrates are pupating now, and the larval stage only lasted about 2-3 weeks. The pupae are the same size as the overwintering pupae, so it will be interesting to see if they produce spring form adults (very easy to tell the difference in hippocrates, as the hw anal eyespot is different between spring and summer forms) and the next generation becomes summer form, or perhaps they will produce small summer form specimens. I suspect that there may well be 2 spring generations in warmer parts of Japan too.
Adam.
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Post by jrlaiho on Mar 22, 2011 21:43:19 GMT -8
The shorter days in late July/early August when the larvae reach 5th instar could well explain why they do not develop a second generation. In hot summers the development is obviously faster and the larvae reaches 5th instar earlier when the days are longer.
As for the natural conditions in Scandinavia (Especially Sweden and Finland, although outside Scandinavia. I am not that familiar with Norway.) the flight season is mainly early June to late June (depending a bit on season). The larvae stage is about 3-5 weeks, so I would say about a month in normal conditions. Big larvae are generally found in early August here in S Finland. The main foodplant is Peucedanum palustre that grows in marshy places, lake shores etc. Such places are generally cold and humid during the night.
Compared with “ssp. gorganus” I would say that the Fennoscandian specimens are generally a bit darker, but the climate could well explain these slight differences. And as noted earlier there are really few barriers in Europe.
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Post by jrlaiho on Mar 22, 2011 21:48:47 GMT -8
and a Finnish machaon in our garden, late June 2010
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Post by Adam Cotton on Mar 22, 2011 22:41:37 GMT -8
Thanks for the information, fantastic photo!
From your information it seems that the larval stage does not last much longer in Scandinavia than out here, so perhaps the size difference also may be due to the different foodplants that larvae feed on. I am feeding some of my Swedish machaon larvae on fennel and some on carrot to see if there is any difference there. I would like to try Peucedanum palustre but I don't have any plants of that here.
Adam.
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Post by wolf on Mar 23, 2011 2:17:55 GMT -8
Main flightperiod is also June, through July here in Norway... There has been records of machaon as late as beginning of September here. And as early as first half of May.
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Post by somewhatpeculiar on Mar 23, 2011 13:19:40 GMT -8
In Denmark there are no populations and strays could be from both German (gorganus) and Swedish (machaon) origin I think. This confirmed by websites in denmark. I obtained a number of Swedish machaon pupae a while ago and I'm looking forward on rearing the ssp this year. My Swedish pupae clearly differ from my Swiss pupae in ground colour (pale) and markings (very intense in brown pupae). Could you post a photo of your swiss pupae? My batch of nearly 200 swedish pupae were all similarly colored. Either green-yellow or brown-white. I got a single exception of more sand-colored pupae.
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Post by somewhatpeculiar on Mar 23, 2011 13:46:41 GMT -8
Adam, indeed it would be interesting to see if Swedish machaon become multivoltine under hot climatic conditions. As you might know, P. machaon has a rare second generation in both Sweden and Finland in hot summers (possibly in Norway, but I know of no records). Obviously these are just single specimens, not a complete generation as abundant as the first one. The interesting question is will most of them go into diapause despite hot climate conditions, or will they readily develop into a new generation. I have bred larvae found in nature (S Finland) a number of times (mostly found as medium or full sized larvae). Breeding and keeping the pupae in room temperature has not produced any second generation specimens. In Sweden the partial second generation is almost yearly in the southwest part regardless of weather. Seems less frequent in other parts. I breed outside to get the most natural condition I can provide and keeping the pupae in the same cage got the result that some of them went to second generation and some not. Next year I will keep track of how many and put them in different places (more or less sun and more or less rain) to see if there's any difference. In Sweden the first generation larvae is 3-5 weeks. The second generation is a week longer with the last larvae still being on the plants during the first frost nights. I started to assemble all information I could track down for papilio machaon - all that is relevant for the Swedish envirnoment as my scope is only to provide local information. My website is not finished and if anyone can help me get more or more accurate information I'd be grateful. Send me a personal message on this site. www.mindserver.se/makaonfjaril.htmlIt's in swedish but use any translator, or use the button in the upper right corner to get google translation to english..
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Post by saturniidave on Mar 23, 2011 16:17:52 GMT -8
Just out of interest I gather from a friend who lives on the Broads that machaon britannicus has two brood every year now. Down where I live the Poplar Hawk (Sphinx) moth Laothoe populi is now routinely double brooded also. Dave
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Post by Ascalaphus on Mar 24, 2011 0:58:47 GMT -8
In Denmark there are no populations and strays could be from both German (gorganus) and Swedish (machaon) origin I think. This confirmed by websites in denmark. I obtained a number of Swedish machaon pupae a while ago and I'm looking forward on rearing the ssp this year. My Swedish pupae clearly differ from my Swiss pupae in ground colour (pale) and markings (very intense in brown pupae). Could you post a photo of your swiss pupae? My batch of nearly 200 swedish pupae were all similarly colored. Either green-yellow or brown-white. I got a single exception of more sand-colored pupae. I had a look at your website and my Swiss pupae are very similar to your Swedish pupae. My Swedish pupae are paler in ground colour, the dark ones are almost white with black markings. So these differences may be caused by different breeding conditions only.
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Post by bobw on Mar 24, 2011 1:43:01 GMT -8
Just out of interest I gather from a friend who lives on the Broads that machaon britannicus has two brood every year now. I'm surprised, as I've heard that there's still only the occasional 2nd brood specimen recorded. My captive colony has only produced one 2nd brood specimen in the last three years and I would have thought it would be more likely where I am than in Norfolk. Bob
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Post by saturniidave on Mar 24, 2011 8:10:38 GMT -8
Bob, I have a friend who lives at Rockland Broad who reliably informs me that he gets two broods every year now and has done for a few years, they come into his garden to feed on Buddleia. He is also an Entomologist so knows his stuff. Dave
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