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Post by nomihoudai on Oct 27, 2018 18:55:15 GMT -8
“Chinese are suppliers not customers” Not anymore, here in Canada Chinese are buying off everything, i don’t know yet how is in Europe. As far as this goes, it doesn't really happen in Europe as it is too far away from China. Furthermore, why would anyone waste money on European real estate? The political outlook with an over aging society is grim for the next 30 years. I am currently traveling through Asia and I have to say that I am very happy for China and the rest of South East Asia, that China was able to move from being dirt poor to one of the greatest economies (and in a few years very likely the greatest economy) in the world. I also don't like this zero sum thinking, because it doesn't make sense. Just because the Chinese do have money it doesn't mean that I can't afford anything at all anymore. All it means is that there is two equal players in the game. What I can afford is only bound by supply, and if Europeans/Canadians are not building real estate quickly enough then it is their own fault. |
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Post by LEPMAN on Oct 27, 2018 18:59:58 GMT -8
“Chinese are suppliers not customers” Not anymore, here in Canada Chinese are buying off everything, i don’t know yet how is in Europe. As far as this goes, it doesn't really happen in Europe as it is too far away from China. Furthermore, why would anyone waste money on European real estate? The political outlook with an over aging society is grim for the next 30 years. I am currently traveling through Asia and I have to say that I am very happy for China and the rest of South East Asia, that China was able to move from being dirt poor to one of the greatest economies (and in a few years very likely the greatest economy) in the world. I also don't like this zero sum thinking, because it doesn't make sense. Just because the Chinese do have money it doesn't mean that I can't afford anything at all anymore. All it means is that there is two equal players in the game. What I can afford is only bound by supply, and if Europeans/Canadians are not building real estate quickly enough then it is their own fault. I couldn’t agree with you more, through my time in China I have truly learned to appreciate China and it’s great that you are getting the opportunity to experience China along with a great guide! |
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Post by Paul K on Oct 27, 2018 19:05:45 GMT -8
“Just because the Chinese do have money it doesn't mean that I can't afford anything at all anymore”
Indeed my statement here was elavated.
We still have sources to survive and buy things, but how much of it is running on credit?
Canada is number one country running on debts. We print the paper money pretend that all economies are running great.
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Post by Paul K on Oct 27, 2018 19:17:48 GMT -8
Saying all that I admire Asian countries especially China.
They all work hard and certainly they deserved to be on top.
China became the greatest economy power. I only hope they will treat us fair in upcoming years.
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Post by trehopr1 on Oct 27, 2018 21:14:17 GMT -8
Leroy, that look's like quite the Phoebis philea you raised. Very unusual...
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Post by nomad on Oct 27, 2018 23:42:42 GMT -8
If as you say, I have no idea about ebay, the Chinese and Japanese are spending all their money on ebay, then that is why the prices are high but as some say if your want A1 perfect rarities these days you have to pay for them. I might add some of the largest and best private collections are in Europe.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 23:54:44 GMT -8
Yes Peter and not only the largest but oldest and most historical too.I sometimes have found with some things that are considered rare, when they first come on the market for large sums of money can be had much cheaper if one wants a while and then finds a source away from the bidding war of online auctions.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Oct 28, 2018 2:49:36 GMT -8
Leroy, that look's like quite the Phoebis philea you raised. Very unusual... I lived in south Florida twice (1987 -1992 & 1997 - 2000). I lived in western Palm Beach County the second time. I planted several Cassia plants (Bushes) in my yard. Over the next two years of 1998/1999 I checked them on a regular basis and would remove all of the near mature larvae. As a result, I got some absolutely stunning and prefect specimens of both Phoebis sennae and Phoebis philia. In a matter of several months, I had a great series of each. I also let hundreds of them fly. I also had a yard full of nectar sources, including Pentas, Lantana and Biden's. The neighbor's were not happy with the Biden's (Stick Tights).The Bidens came up everywhere. I also planted Aristolochia vines for Battus polydamus. Canna lillies for some of the large skippers. I also grew citrus which got me a very nice series of Papilio cresphontes. I raise more Lepdoptera in South Florida than anywhere else, with the exception of Kentucky. Kentucky, the land of Red Necks, White Socks & PBR, and where the Moon comes over the mountains in Gallon Jugs, yeeeha..... I should not complain, I married a Kentucky girl. A great cook. And the Great State of Kentucky is home to hundreds of Waffle Houses. Well, maybe not hundreds, but there is a lot's of them. |
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 28, 2018 5:36:09 GMT -8
There have ALWAYS been some high prices on the entomological market (especially in Europe and in Japan).
One century ago, some species like Charaxes fournierae were VERY expensive.
About China, it is true that there are more and more Chinese customers on the market. I have sold for 450 USD of Parnassius on eBay last week and the buyer was Chinese. That's a good news for insect sellers.
It makes full sense as there are more and more wealthy Chinesemen and they now speak English and have access to Paypal, eBay and so on.
This said, selling insects remains a difficult job and most sellers are not wealthy.
Some are doing very well, but they are excellent in finding rarities year after year from different sources and they work a lot.
+ I would add that HIGH PRICES doesn't necessarily mean HIGH MARGINS (Delias messalina is a good example).
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Post by joachim on Oct 28, 2018 15:05:32 GMT -8
I think not many professional sellers can live or can live good enough from selling however I see some also selling on ebay and it looks as if they were not starving.
Years ago I realized many Japanese people have a lot of money and buying not only insects, also coins and all stuff. The Chinese have a lot of money ( or many of them ) so why shouldn´t they pay good prices,
As there are many regulations, it is much more difficult to deal with insects. On the other hand, in the 70´s the only possibilities to find customers or a good dealer was inserting in papers or going to a insect fair.
today, with the internet, is is much easier. But also I think there are not so many collectors here in Germany as years ago. Also minerals, stamps, postcards are not as much collected as in the 60´s, 70´s that is my personal experience.
( Who is collecting stamps, matchboxes, glasses?
The main difference to these is that butterflies, beetles and other insects are still fascinating because you can breed them, study them, collect them in the nature what you cannot do with stamps, for example. ( If you see stamps flying around, consult your doctor)
regarding the price, it is very dangerous to buy expensive ones as they maybe are bred or found in large numbers somewhere. I remember I was offered a male Ornithoptera rothschildi in 1973, 1974 for 500 $ ( when the dollar was really expensive) . Just a few were seen. Later they found as I heard many in a neighbourhood valley and today I see you can get a perfect pair, ex pupa for 60, 70 EUR. Maybe 80.
However, we are used to buy many things cheap or very cheap. I can buy a shirt for 10 EUR which has been produced in Asia or when I remember ( I am in the Computer industry) that I bought my first PC for 20,000 DM ( my car was 15000) and nowadays many many products are very cheap. So, getting butterflies is, when hunting, still some work, breeding needs experience and so I am not the one who wants to pay nothing for a good specimen.
Furthermore, with any offered things, the price is what you can get. If you can sell your car for a million, it is worth a million, even if it doesn´t move.
As my mother said, "Do not demand is laziness"
That´s my 2 penies for this theme. sorry for bad english
Joachim
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 29, 2018 2:28:36 GMT -8
Expensive specimens might indeed become cheap but the contrary is also true.
Papilio lampsacus was offered around 20 USD few decades ago. Now it is above 1.000 USD.
Same for Ornithoptera alexandrae which was much cheaper before it became CITES 1.
Syrian Lucanus have seen their prices exploded since the beginning of the war.
PNG Delias were rather cheap when IFTA existed. Now their prices are very high because there is no more source for them.
And with Bolsonaro at power in Brazil, Amazonia will soon be a souvenir, so my Brazilian Agrias will worth thousands of euros in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2018 3:52:58 GMT -8
Back in the mid 80's I got a few pairs of Agrias narcissus for £8 a pair in a job lot I bought, never would have guessed they would one day be so hard to come by.
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Post by africaone on Oct 29, 2018 5:16:52 GMT -8
There have ALWAYS been some high prices on the entomological market (especially in Europe and in Japan). One century ago, some species like Charaxes fournierae were VERY expensive. About China, it is true that there are more and more Chinese customers on the market. I have sold for 450 USD of Parnassius on eBay last week and the buyer was Chinese. That's a good news for insect sellers. It makes full sense as there are more and more wealthy Chinesemen and they now speak English and have access to Paypal, eBay and so on. This said, selling insects remains a difficult job and most sellers are not wealthy. Some are doing very well, but they are excellent in finding rarities year after year from different sources and they work a lot. + I would add that HIGH PRICES doesn't necessarily mean HIGH MARGINS (Delias messalina is a good example). I don't completely agree. For fournierae it was only a handfull specimens known until the 80's and a female was sold at the extraordinary price for the moment at 5000 French Francs (< Plantrou) If you have a look at the pricelist of the 70's 80's you see considerable material at reasonable price. The explosion of prices came latter for Africa (at least) in the turn of the 90's. Today the prices are decreasing for the rarities and stangely many groups, not reputated as pricy, acquired good value. The African market was (and is) regulated by some French and German dealers. Czechs represent a big part of the collectors and this last years, many Russians appeared. These collectors/dealers are more reasonable and often much accessible. It can be of interest to see how the market evolved before entomology became more accessible (democratization/popularization) and not only reserved to Aristocrats, Noblemen and Scientists. Today it seems that Japanese entomology decreases, many of the "big collectors" becoming old and not replaced. Some decades ago it was quite impossible to acquire something from Japan or from the countries dominated by Japan, mainly Oriental region (except for those that collected themselves or travelled). Today many more collectors have access to this material at reasonable prices and the concurrence of Japaneses is not so hard as in the past. |
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 30, 2018 2:45:45 GMT -8
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Oct 30, 2018 3:48:59 GMT -8
Thank you Oliver. I appreciate your help. However, I was given 11 specimens (8 males & 3 females) by a friend. They are in route.
I collect North American Lepidoptera only, however, I have always kept on "eye" on the Caribbean for some unknown reason. While living in south Florida. I met a Cuban exile who had an interest in entomology and worked on the mosquito control group as a pilot (Monroe County Florida: Florida Keys). He has contacts in Cuba.
I have collected on Hispaniola, Jamaica and several islands in the Bahamas. The Bahamas where 90 miles east of Miami. A fellow Lepidopterist and I would fly over from Miami on Friday night (On a sea plane 1944 vintage PBY) and return Sunday night for $112.00 round trip. I collected some nice Lepidoptera. The people that owned and operated the planes let me keep traps,battery's and other equipment at their facility in the Bahamas. They even kept my batteries charged.
We rented an old jeep for $20 a day. We packed in our own food. Slept on the beach more than once. That was in the late 1980's. I am too old for that sort of travel today.
I only collected on Jamaica once in 1992. The trip was eleven days long, collected in the Blue Mountains and the coastal plateau. We took four tropics style bait traps and one light trap. I took the Ethyl Acetate in Gin Bottles. Bought a battery in Kingston. Shipped the light trap and specimen home via postal service. I still have several moths that I cannot identify, nor can anybody else.
While in Jamaica I rented a car. A 1964 Studebaker Silver Cloud for $10 a day. A four speed on the column.
At 73 years old I am not sure I could travel like that any more. But is was fun when I did.
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