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Post by persnickety84 on Feb 6, 2019 1:26:44 GMT -8
I am new to importing (I'm in the US) and have been trying to figure out which port my package will arrive at. I can write the closest port, but some of my international EMS mails, such as clothing, has arrived at a different port before.
All of the suppliers I have been in contact with uses EMS. Any of you have experience?
How do I know which port to write down on the declaration 3-177 form?
I plan on filing 3-177 online with eDec. Do I need to file this before the package arrives?
Thank you in advance.
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Post by africaone on Feb 6, 2019 1:43:13 GMT -8
of course in Europe it is a little bit different but avoid word such as "entomological" often associate with mallacology, or such words, by customs (more protected sectors). If they don't know a word they use the easiest way for them : resend, refuse or destroy. Company like Ems, Dhl, etc collaborates closely with customs and systematically transit their parcels to customs (at least here). Nagoya doesn't help everybody to understand what to do.
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Post by persnickety84 on Feb 6, 2019 12:14:37 GMT -8
Thank you africaone,
All of this seems very daunting and hearing some bad experiences with the US FWS.... I hope to be able to communicate with the suppliers since some aren't very great at English, I'm always afraid if they really got it.
I hope to get some more help with the port issue. Maybe I can complete an eDec for each port?? Not sure if I'm allowed to do that.
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Post by exoticimports on Feb 6, 2019 13:58:26 GMT -8
To understand how all the import of wildlife products into USA works, you have to read the Federal Code of Regulations (laws) that pertain to it. Seriously- read it all, and understand it. If you print it out (suggested) it is about 50-70 pages, I don't remember exactly.
In FCR, the list of ports is there, but may be outdated. USFWS may have that on their website as well.
Typically, you would address it to their office, and then have them forward it. Best way may be a box-in-a-box, outer box addressed to USFWS, inner box to you.
If you do have questions, call the USFWS port of entry. Don't bother with your local office.
And take it from me- document every conversation: who, what date, what time, explicit information. Having such records saved my rear when USFWS gave me very, very bad information and then turned their errors onto me.
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Post by persnickety84 on Feb 6, 2019 14:59:39 GMT -8
exoticimports That is such great advice to ship box-in-a-box, never thought of doing it that way. I didn't think of USFWS providing forwarding service. Do they cooperate without giving much issues? The fear of possible trouble has me leaving a paper trail (emails) for every conversation. I'll read more on the details of importing on the FWS website. Thanks for the help!!
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Post by persnickety84 on Feb 6, 2019 17:23:05 GMT -8
exoticimports May I ask what the bad information they gave you was?
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Post by exoticimports on Feb 7, 2019 4:57:03 GMT -8
The main state office told me I could import Ornithoptera from Solomon Islands- that came from both the office AIC and the lead expert. Thank God I took notes. Then USFWS did indeed approve import on several occasions for me.
Then one day USFWS found a change in law buried in Federal Record (and never incorporated into the "printed" version of FCR.) Of course, I was only informed of this upon the next import, when they seized all of my research material as well and, over the next six months, treated me rudely and like a criminal. After six months and substantial efforts- including reference letters from professional entomologists and museums- my reference material was returned, minus some fabulous forms of Ornithoptera.
The next import was seized without cause, driven by the import office AIC. The inspector told me I did nothing wrong- in fact USFWS was inappropriate and failed to follow both the law and procedures- but it occurred. This cost me several hundred dollars in bond and shipping; in that some of the material was commercial (to support my research and the local village economy) it made my prices too high to compete, particularly against US retailers who had smuggled the same species.
Furthermore (on the above) the inspector admitted I'd been "black listed" by USFWS and it was likely that future imports would be seized for inspection. This despite that I'd followed the law, while in fact USFWS has broken the law. The inspector indicated that there is no way to "black list" USFWS itself, only importers, so I got to be the fall guy for USFWS screw-ups and stupid laws that the US adopts automatically as a signatory to CITES (that in itself is scary- effectively US law being created by foreign bureaucrats with no US oversight.)
At that point I abandoned my overseas research and USFWS license. The Swamp won, science lost.
As an additional note and sad concern, Bishop Museum worked with USFWS to inspect the seized Ornithoptera, and identified the females as originating from Indonesia- while identifying the males (correctly) as from Solomon Islands...this despite the fact that all of the material was clearly from Solomon Islands! Makes me question the competence of the entomologists at Bishop Museum.
Chuck
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Post by jshuey on Feb 7, 2019 6:15:19 GMT -8
You have to view having bugs shipped to you as a crap shoot and don't spend money that you can't afford to loose. Like Chuck says, you never quite know how the rules may be interpreted on any particular day...
That said, I've never lost an inbound shipment - perhaps pure luck? Keep in mind, I don't do very many - on average, less than 1 per year. I always try to make sure the paper work is in order. But keep in mind that sometimes, even if you insist on it, people may take shortcuts on the other end. And that the paperwork should be on the exterior of the package for easy inspection. And back to the original question - EMS does seem to breeze through the postal system. It is what I prefer to use because it is fast and can can be tracked. And like I said, I've never had a problem.
And what Chuck said about documenting conversations with FWS is important. When I talk to them on the phone about issues such as this, I try and get an email address for the person I spoke to, and send them a re-cap of our conversation as documentation of "my understanding" what what we said. Always followed at the end of the email by a request for them to clarify in writing anything I misunderstood.
John
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Post by persnickety84 on Feb 7, 2019 16:31:20 GMT -8
exoticimports Wow, that is just so unfortunate and extremely unfair to blacklist you for something you haven't done, even with the inspector backing you up. So sorry... I am starting to question if I should carry on with importing, or I should just stick with domestic suppliers. I wonder if problems like this arise even with non CITES species.
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Post by persnickety84 on Feb 7, 2019 16:37:12 GMT -8
jshueyThank you for your response. With your experience with EMS and filing 3-177 declaration, did you know which port it was getting through? Or did you include a copy inside the box? Or done the box-in-a-box like exoticimports suggested? Would you be able to share each step you took? I'm dealing with an experience supplier who has been doing this for over 20 years, so I'd like to believe they know what they're doing, but if there's something special you do on your end, I would like to know.
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Post by exoticimports on Feb 8, 2019 5:11:37 GMT -8
exoticimports Wow, that is just so unfortunate and extremely unfair to blacklist you for something you haven't done, even with the inspector backing you up. So sorry... I am starting to question if I should carry on with importing, or I should just stick with domestic suppliers. I wonder if problems like this arise even with non CITES species. The challenges of importing wildlife go beyond USFWS incompetence and Swamp behavior: > condition of specimens not as reported > extra specimens sent in the parcel because the local dealer was forced to buy them from his brother in law > changes or sudden enforcement at the country of origin > specimens you paid for given to the Japanese guy who shows up on-site with big $$ and you get promises If your goal is to import for resale, you have competition, and the competition doesn't always play by the rules. When I was importing several of the big name sellers in USA were importing legally on the US side, but exporting from country of origin illegally (which, technically, makes the import non-compliant). Their costs then are less, which means they can charge less. The big question is why to import. The risk of financial hit is big. You can save a lot of money by importing, but sooner or later a shipment is going to get lost, not get sent, damaged, seized, whatever and then you're out of a lot of money and it erases all that money you saved. Chuck |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 16:27:35 GMT -8
I stopped importing years ago bc it took all of the fun out the hobby for me. Seizures, fines, or worse were not worth the stuff I imported. On top of that, the goons (USFW) had the audacity to double the license fee, require that importers use Hubs w high fees/ special operators, and increased fees for anything CITES. Their site is ambiguous and since the Solomons have not signed the treaty, Ornithoptera are not allowed to be imported. Someone told me that the Solomons did sign, but the USFW have not yet adjusted accordingly. Save yourself the pains and risks and don’t get into it. Buy from within the US and do keep detailed records just in case. Sorry to be doom and gloomish, but it is indeed a sad situation we find ourselves in.
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Post by persnickety84 on Feb 8, 2019 17:21:58 GMT -8
exoticimports billgartheIt definitely makes me think twice before jumping into this. I wanted to import for commercial purposes... I frame them as collectibles in shadow boxes. I have been buying specimens from US sellers, but since Miguel from Tropical Butterflies have passed away and BicBugs took over, the prices are too high, even for wholesale quantities. So unfortunate. I will be searching for more US sellers and leave importing as a last resort. I wish I had known all this before wasting $100 on the permit. I did get an email from the San Francisco wildlife inspector this morning regarding importing via mail (USPS/EMS) Below is the email and PDF attachment Instructions for non-live wildlife via mail.pdf (221.53 KB)
Good morning,
USPS does not have a brokerage service so it would be your responsibility to ensure declarations are filed to USFWS for all shipments prior to clearance by CBP (customs).
With mail shipments this can be very tricky since parcels can arrive at any time of day and CBP clearance can occur very quickly once the parcel arrives. Further complicating things, sometimes the tracking isn't updated until after their clearance occurs. Because of this challenge, we generally recommend that importers don't use USPS/EMS, but for small items like dried insects where EMS is the only choice or the most cost effective option, we strongly recommend that you file your declarations before the shipment arrives to the US to ensure that you don't accidentally break the law.
Generally I recommend that you file as soon as the foreign supplier tells you the shipment has been sent and provides you with the tracking number. Make a best guess regarding port of entry and arrival date on your declaration then watch the tracking and update the arrival date once the parcel lands in the US. If you guessed incorrectly about the port and it arrives at a different port, a wildlife inspector can correct the arrival port code for you.
Should the parcel accidentally bypass FWS inspection at the international mail hub and get delivered to you before you receive your FWS clearance notification, there are a lot more options available if you have already filed a declaration to USFWS. Should a parcel arrive before you get FWS clearance, don't open it and immediately call the FWS office at the arrival port and ask for instructions.
I've attached a reference document that outlines the instructions for filing a declaration to San Francisco, please review and let me know if you have questions.
Catherine Yasuda
Wildlife Inspector
U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Office of Law Enforcement
Port of San Francisco
Phone: (650) 876-9078
Fax: (650) 876-9701
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Post by katjabutterfly on Sept 20, 2021 9:19:35 GMT -8
So I just had an issue with USFWS about using EMS speedpost to import my specimens. I have been importing legally for several years now. I have my license, I know which "port of Entry" I'm supposed to use for my shipments, I fill out and submit my eDec correctly, pay my 93.00 inspection fee and I even print out a copy of the eDec package, ( including the cover page, packing list, species identification on the declaration, a copy of my license, and even an image of the shipping label) and I have my shipper include a copy of the document package on the package itself! Then I E-mail my Port of entry" and give them a "heads up that a package is on the way.
You'd think that should be compliant enough...but no, not anymore. My last shipment cleared my authorized "Port of Entry", in this case New York, WITHOUT being inspected in spite of my best efforts to identify the shipment as needing inspection. There was technically no fault on my part.
I then received a stern E-mail informing me that I have a "violation" on my record and that if I continued to use EMS speedpost I could be subject to fines and confiscation.
After speaking to several Inspectors, including a supervisor, I was informed of the following:
Regular mail, like EMS Speedpost, has no tracking method that allows for inspection, so if a package goes through a port without being inspected EVEN IF ALL THE PAPERWORK IS IN PLACE, you will receive a warning, and if you get caught again, you will be subject to fines and confiscation of materials. And here's the kicker: There is no rule yet that makes it illeagal to use "Regular" mail, like EMS Speedpost, so this is not information you can even know, until a shipment goes through without being inspected.
The "violation" is the fact that a package was not inspected, EVEN IF IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT.
My purpose for writing this comment is two-fold. One; to warn legitimate importers of this "new" so called regulation and two; to connect with other importers on how to use alternate shipping methods like FedEx or DHL.
It is my understanding that those shipping methods provide their own inspections and one can avoid the "hassle" to which I was just subjected. Does anyone have experience with DHL or FedEx and do you have to have an account with them? How do you deal with these shippers to let them know you are "importing" USFWS sensitive material?
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 20, 2021 11:57:13 GMT -8
Ask to see the law, ruling, or internal notification banning EMS. I will bet it doesn’t exist.
FedEx and DHL do not have their own FWS inspectors. DHL is unlikely to route it correctly anyway.
More than likely EMS or USFWS screwed up, and you’re the fall guy.
That’s why I quit.
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