Papilio memnon

Paul K
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Papilio memnon Jan 8, 2021 18:30:24 GMT -8 via mobile

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Post by Paul K on Jan 8, 2021 18:30:24 GMT -8

Koh Tao is very interesting island.
Troides aeacus also occurs there in two subspecies: malaiianus and aeacus.
I suppose last ice age when all these land was connected Koh Tao must to be right on the line where two zones met.

Last Edit: Jan 8, 2021 18:31:59 GMT -8 by Paul K

Adam Cotton
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Papilio memnon Jan 9, 2021 0:54:44 GMT -8 trehopr1 and Paul K like this

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Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 9, 2021 0:54:44 GMT -8

I guess that T. aeacus is an intermediate mixture of both subspecies, similar to the situation with Byasa adamsoni on Koh Tao. Two subspecies cannot occur in the same place under normal circumstances, either they are forms of the same population that look like each subspecies, or they are actually two separate species. In this case I think that genes from both subspecies exist in the same island population, so both female 'forms' occur there.

Adam.

wollastoni Moderator Posts: 2,390 Country: France	Papilio memnon Jan 9, 2021 9:31:06 GMT -8 trehopr1 likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by wollastoni on Jan 9, 2021 9:31:06 GMT -8 Talking about Papilio memnon, there is a nice memnon GYNANDROMORPH right now on eBay : www.ebay.com/itm/402632038535
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trehopr1
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Papilio memnon Jan 9, 2021 9:54:19 GMT -8 via mobile

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Post by trehopr1 on Jan 9, 2021 9:54:19 GMT -8

What a wonderful complex this memnon group is to collect. So many forms, variations,and subspecies.

Thank you for showing us the nice sampling that you have Adam of this group.

One time over my years I had an opportunity to look over two drawers of the memon complex from a collection being parted out. The owner seemed to have an innate interest in these as both drawers contained around 50 specimens total. It was to say the least overwhelming in its variety overall; so I settled on just picking out four specimens to keep for myself as there was so much more of this collection to still look over...

Of course now I'm sorry I didn't grab at least 10 more of those memnon items as I love big butterflies in general and variation (within a species of this kind) intrigues me.

Thanks again for the nice photos.

gaspipe
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Papilio memnon Jan 9, 2021 13:58:08 GMT -8 via mobile

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Post by gaspipe on Jan 9, 2021 13:58:08 GMT -8

Jan 9, 2021 9:31:06 GMT -8 wollastoni said:

Talking about Papilio memnon, there is a nice memnon GYNANDROMORPH right now on eBay : www.ebay.com/itm/402632038535

Holy smokes that is an amazing specimen , can’t wait to see what it goes for ; out of my league . On another note how do do tell if these are faked just by looking at photos?

trehopr1
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Papilio memnon Jan 9, 2021 21:48:22 GMT -8 Paul K likes this

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Post by trehopr1 on Jan 9, 2021 21:48:22 GMT -8

Hello Adam and Paul, here is another fine specimen of P. memnon
which I have and which was acquired at the same time as my first
posted specimen. Both from the same collection...

This one's data reads:
P. memnon memnon (female)
Bali, Indonesia
Nov. 1989

Pictured below is my originally posted specimen with
better lighting and camera angle !

Both specimens are about the same size. These are indeed a large species
by most butterfly standards.

Last Edit: Jan 9, 2021 21:50:29 GMT -8 by trehopr1

Adam Cotton Moderator Posts: 3,496 Country: Thailand	Papilio memnon Jan 9, 2021 22:37:19 GMT -8 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 9, 2021 22:37:19 GMT -8 trehopr1, What's the data for the two protesilaus group species? Adam.

trehopr1 Moderator Posts: 1,339	Papilio memnon Jan 9, 2021 23:02:03 GMT -8 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by trehopr1 on Jan 9, 2021 23:02:03 GMT -8 I will look at the data for you tomorrow Adam. I know that one is from Peru and the other is from Columbia.

Adam Cotton
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Papilio memnon Jan 10, 2021 6:21:17 GMT -8

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Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 10, 2021 6:21:17 GMT -8

Jan 9, 2021 23:02:03 GMT -8 trehopr1 said:

I will look at the data for you tomorrow Adam. I know that one is from Peru and the other is from Columbia.

Thanks, locality if possible please. I guess the first one is from Colombia, but I may be wrong.

Adam.

trehopr1
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Posts: 1,339

Papilio memnon Jan 10, 2021 10:07:43 GMT -8

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Post by trehopr1 on Jan 10, 2021 10:07:43 GMT -8

Hello Adam, here is the data on those 2 swordtails...

The one located below the (yellowish) memnon is:
Columbia
Boyaca Dept.
Muzo
Sept.1984

The one located below the (reddish) memnon is:
Peru
Loreto
Rio Apayacu
120m. NE. of Iquitos
April.21.1987
J.C.Bolles, coll.
-----------------
(E.telesilaus)

So, this is how the data appears on the labels.

Do you think the determination on the Peru item is correct ?

What species might the Columbia item be ?

Of coarse, if you want to keep this thread dedicated to P.memnon
then feel free to give this topic its own thread.

Last Edit: Jan 10, 2021 10:08:41 GMT -8 by trehopr1

trehopr1 Moderator Posts: 1,339	Papilio memnon Jan 10, 2021 10:14:34 GMT -8 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by trehopr1 on Jan 10, 2021 10:14:34 GMT -8 You know, these fellows seem like a tough crowd (group) to tell apart. There are standouts like salvini, delicaon etc. but, then there are the rest... What do you think about these from a specialists point of view ?

Adam Cotton
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Papilio memnon Jan 10, 2021 12:56:52 GMT -8 trehopr1 likes this

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Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 10, 2021 12:56:52 GMT -8

The protesilaus group of genus Eurytides is one of the most difficult groups in the whole of family Papilionidae to identify, and indeed only checking genitalia confirms the identity of some of them.

The Colombia specimen is almost certainly Eurytides protesilaus archesilaus.

The Peru specimen is NOT E. telesilaus, I suspect it could be E. aguiari or E. molops hetaerius but it would need a genitalia check to be certain.

Let's leave these and return to P. memnon, unless you would like me to create a new thread for these.

Adam.

Last Edit: Jan 10, 2021 13:01:53 GMT -8 by Adam Cotton

Adam Cotton
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Papilio memnon Jan 10, 2021 14:57:19 GMT -8 wolf, trehopr1, and 1 more like this

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Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 10, 2021 14:57:19 GMT -8

Here is my current classification of Papilio memnon with photos of each ssp. I included a ventral male of many ssp. to show the difference.

Papilio memnon Linnaeus, 1758

ssp. agenor Linnaeus, 1758 (TL. Asia [= Canton, China])

ssp. heronus Fruhstorfer, 1902 (TL. Formosa)

ssp. iriomotensis Fujioka, 2012 (TL. Komi~Yubu, Iriomote Is., Okinawa-ken, SW Japan)
(no specimens)

ssp. thunbergii Siebold, 1824 (TL. Dezima, near Nangasaki)
Kyushu (left), Amami Is. (right)

ssp. nicobarensis Hachitani, 1986 (TL. Great Nicobar Is., Nicobar Iss.)
I only have one male of this very rare ssp. The upperside looks like agenor, but the underside is distinct

ssp. anceus Cramer, 1779 (TL. West coast of Sumatra)
N & W Sumatra

Nias (left) & Batu Is. (right)

S. Sumatra

ssp. caeruleus van Eecke, 1914 (TL. Udjung Laukè, Mata-n-Amurèn und Sinabang, Simalur)

ssp. babimemnon Hachitani, 1993 (TL. Babi Is.)

ssp. oceani Doherty, 1891 (TL. Engano)
(not spread yet)

ssp. christianae Manguin, 1996 (TL. Belitung)

ssp. singkepensis Manguin, 1997 (TL. Singkep)

ssp. suisei Hachitani, 1985 (TL. Jemaja Is., Anambas)
ssp. bunguranomemnon Hachitani, 1989 (TL. Ranai, Bunguran I.)
ssp. tambelanomemnon Hachitani, 1987 (TL. Tambelan Is.)
(no specimens of these ssp.)

ssp. memnon Linnaeus, 1758 (TL. Asia [= Java])
Borneo males

Borneo females

Java males

Java females

Bali males

Bali females

ssp. lowii Druce, 1873 (TL. Borneo [loc. err. = Palawan])
Balabac - males on this island can be tailless, intermediate or long tailed

Palawan

ssp. eos Hachitani, 1991 (TL. Kangean Islands)
Bawean ssp. memnon (left), ssp. eos (right)

ssp. perlucidus Fruhstorfer, 1903 (TL. Sapit, Lombok)

ssp. clathratus Rothschild, 1896 (TL. Sambawa)
I only have males of this ssp.

ssp. kalaomemnon Hachitani, 1987 (TL. Kalao Island, Indonesia)
(no specimens)

ssp. merapu Doherty, 1891 (TL. Koloki, Pada Dalung, Sumba)

ssp. subclathratus Fruhstorfer, 1903 (TL. Flores)

ssp. extremus Tsukada & Nishiyama, 1980 (TL. Alor)

Adam Cotton Moderator Posts: 3,496 Country: Thailand	Papilio memnon Jan 10, 2021 15:00:31 GMT -8 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 10, 2021 15:00:31 GMT -8 Hmmm... Sorry that some photos are rather poor quality or contrast. I only saw that after uploading them here. If someone wants me to post photos of individual specimens please ask. Adam.

wollastoni
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Country: France

Papilio memnon Jan 11, 2021 0:34:13 GMT -8 trehopr1 and gaspipe like this

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Post by wollastoni on Jan 11, 2021 0:34:13 GMT -8

Jan 9, 2021 13:58:08 GMT -8 gaspipe said:

Jan 9, 2021 9:31:06 GMT -8 wollastoni said:

Talking about Papilio memnon, there is a nice memnon GYNANDROMORPH right now on eBay : www.ebay.com/itm/402632038535

Holy smokes that is an amazing specimen , can’t wait to see what it goes for ; out of my league . On another note how do do tell if these are faked just by looking at photos?

Mosaic gynandromorphs like this one are nearly impossible to fake. It would be much too difficult to work at a scale level to mix female and male patterns on wings. I have never seen a faked one.

Perfect bilateral gynandromorphs are sometimes faked :
- a zoom on the abdomen or thorax make you see the glue or some holes between both parts,
- the thorax is only male or female because the scam artist has only glued the wings on a male or on a female (which is easier than dividing the thorax and abdomen and gluing them).
Most of the time, faked bilateral gynandros look odd and a simple zoom make you understand the issue.

The TOP 100 INSECT AUCTIONS : collector-secret.com/top-insect-auctions/
Delias of the World : delias-butterflies.com
My blog about insect photography : macrophoto-insectes.blogspot.fr/

Post by Paul K on Jan 8, 2021 18:30:24 GMT -8

Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 9, 2021 0:54:44 GMT -8

Post by wollastoni on Jan 9, 2021 9:31:06 GMT -8

Post by trehopr1 on Jan 9, 2021 9:54:19 GMT -8

Post by gaspipe on Jan 9, 2021 13:58:08 GMT -8

Post by trehopr1 on Jan 9, 2021 21:48:22 GMT -8

Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 9, 2021 22:37:19 GMT -8

Post by trehopr1 on Jan 9, 2021 23:02:03 GMT -8

Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 10, 2021 6:21:17 GMT -8

Post by trehopr1 on Jan 10, 2021 10:07:43 GMT -8

Post by trehopr1 on Jan 10, 2021 10:14:34 GMT -8

Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 10, 2021 12:56:52 GMT -8

Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 10, 2021 14:57:19 GMT -8

Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 10, 2021 15:00:31 GMT -8

Post by wollastoni on Jan 11, 2021 0:34:13 GMT -8