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Post by yorky on Feb 6, 2021 14:49:12 GMT -8
Bought from an insect fair, data says Sweden, any thoughts?  |
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Post by trehopr1 on Feb 6, 2021 16:11:45 GMT -8
That is indeed a curious specimen. Exceptional amount of yellow !
The reduced blue + red cells of the hind wings
definitely bring attention to it.
I'd like to know myself if this is a subspecies
unique to Sweden or a possible abb (?) or a breeder creation.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 7, 2021 7:59:13 GMT -8
Sweden is the type locality of nominate Papilio machaon, not surprising since it was described by Linnaeus, but this specimen is not typical in appearance.
Can you post an underside photo? Normal Swedish machaon is different to gorganus on the underside.
Adam.
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Post by yorky on Feb 7, 2021 8:22:18 GMT -8
Can't take proper pictures at the moment, digital camera is now fubar
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Feb 7, 2021 10:00:36 GMT -8
FUBAR: Now there is a word I have not heard in 60+ years. It is an acronym.
"F--ked Up Beyond All Repair"
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Post by gaspipe on Feb 7, 2021 11:23:15 GMT -8
FUBAR: Now there is a word I have not heard in 60+ years. It is an acronym. "F--ked Up Beyond All Repair" Or “Recognition” 😆 |
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Feb 7, 2021 12:17:40 GMT -8
FUBAR. No recognition. Just FUBAR....
F--k up Beyond All Repair!!
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 7, 2021 13:07:39 GMT -8
Here's a snapshot of the undersides of a male of ssp. machaon from Sweden and gorganus from Germany:  Note particularly the narrower hindwing postdiscal band of ssp. machaon. Adam. |
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Post by yorky on Feb 7, 2021 13:11:24 GMT -8
Yes they are a lot more narrow.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 7, 2021 14:35:05 GMT -8
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Post by eurytides on Feb 7, 2021 17:19:51 GMT -8
Adam, do you consider joanae a separate species? What about brevicauda?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 8, 2021 6:02:03 GMT -8
P. joanae does seem to be different to machaon, and maybe some more upcoming analyses will shed further light on it and on brevicauda. It is very strange that joanae is restricted to a small area.
I crossed European machaon with brevicauda and got an interesting result. All the male offspring emerged a few weeks after pupation but all the females went into diapause and didn't emerge until the next year. Technically since the offspring were physically unable to produce an F2 generation then they should be regarded as separate species. I was able to cross a male hybrid with a female of machaon hippocrates from Japan and that produced many offspring. A sib-cross of these produced very few fertile eggs, whereas using a male hybrid backcrossed to female hippocrates again produced many offspring. It seems thqat the male hybrids are fertile but the females are not.
Hybrids between European machaon and hippocrates produced many offspring (crossing parents both ways) but there was some reduction in fertility of the hybrids when making an F2 generation, however nowhere near the drop in fertility of the crosses I made involving brevicauda. A back cross of machaon x hippocrates with hippocrates also produced high fertility.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 8, 2021 6:10:24 GMT -8
Talking about Swedish machaon and breeding, it was very interesting to find that when I bred that here in Chiang Mai at 38C, much hotter than the larvae would experience in nature, there was absolutely no effect on phenotype due to the high temperature. I was wondering whether the offspring would look more like southern European machaon, but there was no effect on appearance at all. This shows that phenotype is mainly genetically controlled rather than due to environment. I also found that other subspecies retained their normal appearance as well, suggesting that each population is genetically distinct, at least with respect to appearance.
Adam.
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Post by kevinkk on Feb 8, 2021 8:41:53 GMT -8
This is exactly what I like about the forum, reading topics like this one, from people with much more experience and knowledge than
I do about entomology.
I'd need to be younger, and my passport would need many more stamps.
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Post by yorky on Feb 8, 2021 8:47:55 GMT -8
Your specimens from Sweden do have much narrower bands but not as thin as on my specimen.
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