|
|
Post by lordpandarus on Feb 15, 2021 7:27:36 GMT -8
Thanks for all the replies that was very informative!
I didn't even think of P.rumiko
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post by Paul K on Feb 15, 2021 8:44:20 GMT -8
To compare two species side by side I took a photo of my specimens. left: P.thoas autocles-male, Braulio Carrillo, San Jose, Costa Rica right: P.cresphontes cresphontes-male, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada   |
|
|
|
Post by 58chevy on Feb 15, 2021 9:19:36 GMT -8
Cresphontes is found fairly near the Mexican border, so it's not out of the question that it occasionally strays there. Thoas has noticeably longer, narrower tails than cresphontes. Rumiko tails are shorter than thoas but narrower than cresphontes.
|
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 15, 2021 11:02:39 GMT -8
Adam, does thoas use Rutaceae? There seems be much confusion about this on the internet but I can’t locate an actual paper to clarify the issue either way. On the one hand, thoas is closely related to cresphontes so Rutaceae use seems plausible at least. However, other sources say thoas only uses Piperaceae. This might also be plausible since the taxa are easily misidentified. Do you have any insights? As far as I know most subspecies of thoas are Piperaceae feeders, except thoantiades from Argentina which feeds on Rutaceae. Adam. |
|
leptraps
Banned
Enter your message here...
Posts: 2,397
|
Post by leptraps on Feb 15, 2021 11:06:29 GMT -8
I have never collected Papilio thoas. I have specimens from Nicaragua, all males courtesy of the late John Meyers of Fort Myers.
|
|
|
|
Post by eurytides on Feb 15, 2021 11:24:52 GMT -8
Adam, does thoas use Rutaceae? There seems be much confusion about this on the internet but I can’t locate an actual paper to clarify the issue either way. On the one hand, thoas is closely related to cresphontes so Rutaceae use seems plausible at least. However, other sources say thoas only uses Piperaceae. This might also be plausible since the taxa are easily misidentified. Do you have any insights? As far as I know most subspecies of thoas are Piperaceae feeders, except thoantiades from Argentina which feeds on Rutaceae. Adam. Are they exclusive Piperaceae feeders though? If you took those subspecies and gave them only Rutaceae, would they die? |
|
|
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 15, 2021 11:40:00 GMT -8
I expect that a larva which had been feeding on Piperaceae would refuse to eat Rutaceae leaves if transferred to them, but don't know whether freshly hatched 1st instar larvae would accept Rutaceae leaves or ignore them. Whether they would successfully go all the way through to adults is another question. Unfortunately I am too far away to find out myself.
Adam.
|
|
|
|
Post by lordpandarus on Feb 15, 2021 12:18:31 GMT -8
The specimen of P. cresphontes pictured in Paul Smart Encyclopedia of the Butterfly World is from Mexico and looks more like the P.thoas in your comparison pic.
|
|
|
|
Post by eurytides on Feb 15, 2021 13:42:13 GMT -8
The specimen of P. cresphontes pictured in Paul Smart Encyclopedia of the Butterfly World is from Mexico and looks more like the P.thoas in your comparison pic. Like I said, easily misidentified! Do you have a picture you can upload to show the butterfly in the book? |
|
|
|
Post by nomihoudai on Feb 15, 2021 14:57:05 GMT -8
Papilio cresphontes is the most flappy looking Papilio around here. When you see them in the wild you will probably know what I mean. I think the ventral hindwings give a good determination with everything being aligned in a clear line in thoas.
|
|
|
|
Post by lordpandarus on Feb 15, 2021 15:43:41 GMT -8
The specimen of P. cresphontes pictured in Paul Smart Encyclopedia of the Butterfly World is from Mexico and looks more like the P.thoas in your comparison pic. Like I said, easily misidentified! Do you have a picture you can upload show the butterfly in the book?   |
|
|
|
Post by Paul K on Feb 15, 2021 15:46:44 GMT -8
That is definitely P.rumiko, but because it is newly ( 2014 ) described taxon it was treated as P. cresphontes when this book was published
|
|
|
|
Post by eurytides on Feb 15, 2021 16:49:52 GMT -8
Agree with P. rumiko.
|
|
|
|
Post by foxxdoc on Mar 3, 2021 10:23:46 GMT -8
I too have both. P. thoas came papered with the name or if I caught it it was based on geography .and I followed .
This once again brings up the point of genetic analysis . It is quite limited. but comparing chromosome counts in ( fresh ?) male testicles
certainly would be the definitive. What a great project for a PhD paper.
Tom
|
|
leptraps
Banned
Enter your message here...
Posts: 2,397
|
Post by leptraps on Mar 4, 2021 4:04:40 GMT -8
Look at the "Location " map and you will notice the dot's in the western end of Lake Erie. I have specimens that I collected on "Put-in-Bay" in the early 1960's. It has been established on these Islands for over 65 years that I am aware of. I was told that Cresphontes also occurs on Kelly's Island and Point Pelee in Canada. Can anyone in Canada or who has encountered it in Canada can confirm?
|
|
